Are you an atheist?

[Galaxiom]

I know that Australia did not base their laws on sharia, but that simply makes my argument even stronger. If unbelievers independently can come with laws that are enshrined in sharia, the they cannot logically say Islam is completely wrong.

So you also accept some of the laws of Australia. If you have independently come to these laws then you must logically (using your version of logic) you must accept that all Australian Laws are not completely wrong.

These laws also state that you you must treat all people, both men and women with the same standards. You cannot punish people in Australia for what you term as adultery.

So just as you do not accept Australian law I do not accept sharia.

I reject sharia from its fundamentally fascist foundations. Arbitrary laws based on the psychotic musings of an ancient Arab do not constitute a sound basis for the operation of a democratic society. This is especially so when those arbitrary laws conflict starkly with the values of the society.

If you want to live by sharia law then either stay in or (more likely) go back to the primitive theocratic societies that prefer it. Most of these societies would still be living in the stone age if it was not for their oil and it would be their stupid fascist misogynist philosophy that kept them there.

 

[Galaxiom]

There are many stories I can give having met many people who have reverted to Islam over the past many decades that I have met.

Considering you mix with Muslim people this is hardly surprising. Obviously you won't actually meet people who have left the Muslim faith at a Mosque.

There are vastly more people who have decided to reject all forms of religion and this is clearly shown in the statistics gathered by the government rather than by your personal anecdotes.

 

[Adam Caramon]

I know that Australia did not base their laws on sharia, but that simply makes my argument even stronger. If unbelievers independently can come with laws that are enshrined in sharia, the they cannot logically say Islam is completely wrong.

I think you're not understanding Galaxiom though. He's saying he does not care about Islam, does not have respect for it, etc. He's not saying every word in the Qur'an is wrong, he's saying it is beneath his notice, essentially.

Using your logic, we could say that no one can completely disregard Hitler's Mein Kampf (sp?) as a moral compass, as I am sure there is something in there with a redeemable quality.

When you use terms in this way, you strip away their meaning. Saying something is "completely wrong" means that it is full of errors, or that the person making the statement disagrees with a large percentage of it. If the term "completely wrong" is used in the way you're thinking, i.e. 100% of every letter in a written document, the phrase would then have no meaning.

Islam began at the time of Adam (peace be upon him) so there were no 'people' before Islam as you put it.

And what date, according to you, is "the time of Adam"? And why did you put apostrophes around people?

More importantly, Islam as it is commonly known, did not exist before Muhammad introduced it. Before that people certainly did exist. And there are clear differences between Islam and other major world religions, as well as non-belief.

So, while there was millions of people living in the world, and none of them had ever heard of Islam, when they died, did they go to hell according to your religion for not being followers of Islam?

As another question of curiosity, and I hope this is not culturally insensitive, but as you seem to be a very devoted follower of Islam, and proponent of sharia, why do you live in the UK?

 

[MikeLeBen]

Aziz is allowed to live in the UK probably because he abides by its laws.

Consider this, Aziz:
you are allowed such freedom there, whereas in a country based on Shari'a anyone not following the leader's religion would be persuaded by means of violence, stoning or imprisonment.

Also consider:
when a comic strip is out on the newspapers in that very country that allows such freedom of speech and thought (or other european countries that share the same view, please read this for reference to the most relevant case), why is it that agitations, violence on the streets and panic are only aroused in such cases by the followers of your creed?
The answer is: because they are indoctrinated, cannot accept different cultures and beliefs, and above all are convinced only they possess the shining, incontrovertible truth, in the shape of the dusty quotations you repeatedly posted on this board in bold.

Even so, I think in due time the islamic culture can and shall catch up with some of the more evolved countries, and look past the medieval swamp it's stuck in.

 

[Vassago]

Aziz is allowed to live in the UK probably because he abides by its laws.

Consider this, Aziz:
you are allowed such freedom there, whereas in a country based on Shari'a anyone not following the leader's religion would be persuaded by means of violence, stoning or imprisonment.

Also consider:
when a comic strip is out on the newspapers in that very country that allows such freedom of speech and thought (or other european countries that share the same view, please read this for reference to the most relevant case), why is it that agitations, violence on the streets and panic are only aroused in such cases by the followers of your creed?
The answer is: because they are indoctrinated, cannot accept different cultures and beliefs, and above all are convinced only they possess the shining, incontrovertible truth, in the shape of the dusty quotations you repeatedly posted on this board in bold.

Even so, I think in due time the islamic culture can and shall catch up with some of the more evolved countries, and look past the medieval swamp it's stuck in.

Don't confuse the Islamic culture with extremists. Extremists are no more true Muslims than Christian extremists are true Christians. People need to stop lumping them together. I have many Muslim friends who came from places that are peaceful. There are extremists out there inciting violence to those who don't believe what they do, taking Sharia to a higher level, but the overall majority do not.

 

[Lightwave]

Aziz

You are aware that in many Muslim countries apostasy (in this case rejection of Islam) is illegal and carries the death penalty in some?

I suspect this will be a bit of a hindarance to people admitting that they are leaving the faith.
Very likely they live in fear of expressing their true opinions or even thinking about lapsing in faith.

You are maybe lucky you live here surely you wouldn't want people criminalised simply for losing their faith? How can this be justified?

 

[MikeLeBen]

Don't confuse the Islamic culture with extremists. Extremists are no more true Muslims than Christian extremists are true Christians. People need to stop lumping them together. I have many Muslim friends who came from places that are peaceful. There are extremists out there inciting violence to those who don't believe what they do, taking Sharia to a higher level, but the overall majority do not.

I'm questioning Shari'a.

As anything is subject to interpretation, so is Shari'a.
But if you were to follow closely its predicaments, living in a western world country would be impossible.

I'm not talking about extremists, I'm saying it's an old, outdated and largely incompatible with modernity code of behavior.

Then, the extent to which one decides to interpret or read it (or the bible) is a totally different matter.
In fact, with the bible, the Pope and the Catholic community have had to deeply revise the interpretation doctrine over time, so often that "sticking to the book" is now more a tradition than anything.

In the end, believers find themselves forced to adapt old books to a modern, totally different life we have now. What's the point I ask? I am an atheist, but I am peaceful, despise violence, pay taxes, and every now and then even help old people cross roads. I didn't need a book to learn this, I just needed my atheist parents.
Values are independent of religious faith.

 

[aziz rasul]

Unless I misunderstand, to be a TRUE Muslim you need to accept the whole book? If I agree with one part of it, I still reserve the right to reject the book as an entire entity if there is one thing I find untrue/unrealistic.

Not only do you need to accept the whole Qur'an there are other conditions that also need to be met.

We have all been given free will. We can accept\reject to our hearts content. We will all know the truth before we die, when we see the angel of death (Azraa'eel) and of course on the Day of Judgement.

Harry Potter leaves from a London train station to go to wizard school. London is real, I worked there. That station exists, I've seen it. Schools exist, I went to one. I still reject the book as being a true story.

Ah the difference with the Qur'an is that its real and it contains the truth and is a book of guidance for mankind. Harry Potter is a fictional character, there isn't a wizard school and the rest are real of course but it's not going to give us salvation in this life or the next.

As we keep pointing out but you refuse to accept, the concurrence of some of our laws with Sharia is purely coincidental.

If man can independently come up with laws that are in the Qur'an, then why do you reject the Qur'an completely? These laws were given to man initially by God in the earlier commandments by the prophets and the authentic Scriptures that existed in the past before the Qur'an was revealed and included in the Qur'an by the same author, God 14 centuries ago. So the laws inherent everywhere around the world ultimately came from God and passed down by individuals whether they believed in God or not.

While murder and theft are crimes in Australia, the sexual behaviour of consenting adults is consider a personal decision. These matters are only crimes in the fascist doctrine of religion.

Again through a lack of knowledge you are wrong. It doesn't matter whether the adults consent or not. That's not the point. According to Sharia they are not allowed to exhibit such behaviour in public for which there is a law even in Australia. Check it out. Hence if these are crimes are fascist, then by implication Australia is a fascist state.

The truth is the concepts behind it are firmly rooted in the domination of women by men based on the misogynistic beliefs of primitive men. It is you that fails to understand because you are incapable of conceiving of anything beyond a book written by a man who was suffering from an recognised cognitive disorder that made him presume that he was communicating with a supernatural entity.

If there is a surplus of women over men, it will to a certain extent result in promiscuity which can affect us as a society. I'm sure that many westerners have suffered this way. You only need to see what it's become in the west and a cry by people to have things changed. Many innocent people have suffered through divorce thru illicit relations. I have known some women who became Muslims as a result of how western men treated them.

Surely it would be best if men who had the wealth to maintain more than 1 family to marry with honour and treat all the wives with equity. If you don't agree with that principle, then again we agree to disagree. Your hatred of Islam has consumed you to such an extent that you fail to see reason.

You demonstrate this by the endless irrelevant quotes denigrating any who choose to believe other than the doctrine of your so called "prophet" and threatening retribution against them.

If you don't accept the Qur'an, why should you feel denigrated! After all you have done enough of that yourself by the language you have used. They may be irrelevant to you but not to me. They have acquired great relevance even though you don't see it.
Here are some other relevant verses.

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.

002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

So you also accept some of the laws of Australia. If you have independently come to these laws then you must logically (using your version of logic) you must accept that all Australian Laws are not completely wrong.

These laws also state that you you must treat all people, both men and women with the same standards. You cannot punish people in Australia for what you term as adultery.

I never said they were wrong. On the contrary as some of these laws agree with Sharia, then Muslims can live (as can non-Muslims) in these countries and spread the message and introduce other aspects of Islam. You may pooh pah that, but the success of people becoming Muslims may one day introduce news laws particularly based on promiscuity, alcohol and gambling abuse, porn, etc.

People who openly commit adultery, fornication and homesexual behaviour are punished in Australia.

So just as you do not accept Australian law I do not accept sharia.

Nowhere did I say I did not accept Australian law. If the laws agree with Sharia, then of course I agree with Australian law. I was simply pointing out your lack of knowledge in these things.

I reject sharia from its fundamentally fascist foundations. Arbitrary laws based on the psychotic musings of an ancient Arab do not constitute a sound basis for the operation of a democratic society. This is especially so when those arbitrary laws conflict starkly with the values of the society.

The laws were given to us by God. Even those laws given by the Prophet (peace be upon him) are given through God.

Even democratic societies need laws. After all we don't live in a jungle. All societies have to live by some norms which are also part of Sharia. So just as I demonstrated that your complete rejection of the Qur'an is illogical, again your complete rejection of Sharia is also illogical as you live by some of these laws already in Australia. The only way around it is to leave Australia and find a country where you basically do whatever you want without hindrance.

If you want to live by sharia law then either stay in or (more likely) go back to the primitive theocratic societies that prefer it. Most of these societies would still be living in the stone age if it was not for their oil and it would be their stupid fascist misogynist philosophy that kept them there.

I already partly live according to Sharia and how would Islam be spread if all Muslims simply left. Muslim scholars say that Muslims can live in a non Muslim country providing they correct what is wrong with the society. To not do that and subject yourself and your family to a way that is fundamentally wrong would by irresponsible and could affect ourselves and our children.

Considering you mix with Muslim people this is hardly surprising. Obviously you won't actually meet people who have left the Muslim faith at a Mosque.

I have never met such people, although I'm sure there will be some. As I have said in the past we have been given free will. There is no guarantee that a Muslim will die as a Muslim or vice versa. God says

002.132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

002.133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me ? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

002.134 Those are a people who have passed away. Theirs is that which they earned, and yours is that which ye earn. And ye will not be asked of what they used to do.

003.102. O ye who believe! Fear Allaah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam.

There are vastly more people who have decided to reject all forms of religion and this is clearly shown in the statistics gathered by the government rather than by your personal anecdotes.

Well the vast majority of the world population are non believers. Muslims have a long way to go. However as Muhammad (peace be upon him) was told by God not to fret over the non Muslims, I won't worry too much as well but just simply try the best I can as I'm supposed to do as a Muslim living in a non Muslim country. Having said that, I often feel that my fellow Muslim brothers\sisters in Islam also need guidance as well. It's going to be a busy time. LOL.

I think you're not understanding Galaxiom though. He's saying he does not care about Islam, does not have respect for it, etc. He's not saying every word in the Qur'an is wrong, he's saying it is beneath his notice, essentially.

I understand perfectly well. Galaxiom is not the first of his type that I have come across and probably not be the last.

Using your logic, we could say that no one can completely disregard Hitler's Mein Kampf (sp?) as a moral compass, as I am sure there is something in there with a redeemable quality.

I have read part of Mein Kampf, but never managed to complete it, which I will do some day, insha-allaah. But yes I'm sure there were some redeemable bits in it, although I can't remember what they were.

And what date, according to you, is "the time of Adam"? And why did you put apostrophes around people?

God does not provide us with a date, so I can't say. I placed apostrophes to indicate that I was not referring to humanoids before Adam (peace be upon him).

More importantly, Islam as it is commonly known, did not exist before Muhammad introduced it. Before that people certainly did exist. And there are clear differences between Islam and other major world religions, as well as non-belief.

Adam, you are fundamentally wrong there, but I don't blame you as many Muslims make this same common mistake. Adam (peace be upon him) was a Muslim who gave exactly the same message which was to be obedient to the one God.

7. Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from clay (tiyn).
8. And made his progeny (nasl) from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised (due to the fact that the liquid passes through the urinary tract).
9. But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His Spirit (Gabriel). And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!
Qur’an - Surah as-Sajda (The Prostration) 32:7-9 See also 16:4, 18:37 and 22:5.

28. When thy Lord said to the angels: I am going to fashion a man (Adam) from clay, from moulded mud;
29. When I have harmoniously fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit (Gabriel), …
Qur’an - Surah al-Hijr (The Rock) 15:28-9

“(God) is the One Who fashioned you from a single person and from that (person) created his wife.
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:1

19. “O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.”
20. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: “Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever.”
21. And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.
22. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them (their private parts which prior to this incident were hidden from them), and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: “Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?”
23. They said: “Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost.”
24. (Allaah) said: “Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood, - for a time.”
25. He said: “Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last).”
26. O ye Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame, as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness, - that is the best. Such are among the Signs of Allaah, that they may receive admonition!
27. O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.
Qur’an - Surah al-A`raaf (The Heights) 7:19-27 See also 2:30-6, 2:120-23 and 20:121-1.

Compare Genesis 3:1-15, 23.

So, while there was millions of people living in the world, and none of them had ever heard of Islam, when they died, did they go to hell according to your religion for not being followers of Islam?

There never was a people without a Warner having lived among them’ 35:24

We would never visit our wrath (chastise any community) until We had sent a Messenger to give warning’ 17:15

040.078 Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by Allah's leave, but when Allah's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost.

As another question of curiosity, and I hope this is not culturally insensitive, but as you seem to be a very devoted follower of Islam, and proponent of sharia, why do you live in the UK?

Adam I am a sinner, but I try my best. The fundamental laws in the UK follow Sharia to a certain extent. Not ideal but I can practise my faith without any let or hindrance. I pray at the correct times at work and no one has ever said anything to me regarding this as of course be the case in a Muslim country. I was born in the UK 54 years ago so it's not easy to just leave as my children live here as well. Not sure whether there are any countries which fully implement Sharia. For example, in Sharia the head of a Muslim state is responsible for providing basic necessities such as food, clothing and shelter. I emanate from Pakistan which is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Does the present Pakistani leadership take responsibility in this way for their citizens? I think not. Don't get me wrong, there are many good people in Pakistan who do good towards to others, but at state level it's a bit of a disaster. The system of Zakah allows Muslims who hold wealth for 1 lunar year to voluntarily give 2.5% to the poor. Similarly in the UK we have the welfare state, which in a sense is following the principles of Zakah although of course they are unaware of this.

 

[Vassago]

But you are still standing by your own belief that the book did come before man and was given to man by a higher being. If you believe as I believe, that the book was written by man and the laws were created by man, then man came up with these guidelines on their own, thus eliminating the comparison between different groups of people coming up with the laws on their own without the need of a God to command it. Human nature is strong amongst us all.

 

[Lightwave]

We have all been given free will. We can accept\reject to our hearts content.

Aziz you are aware that in many Muslim countries apostasy (in this case rejection of Islam) is illegal and carries the death penalty in some????????

It would appear free will for some Muslims comes at a heavy cost.

 

[Adam Caramon]

God does not provide us with a date, so I can't say. I placed apostrophes to indicate that I was not referring to humanoids before Adam (peace be upon him).

Just to clarify, according to Islam, there were humanoids before Adam?

Adam, you are fundamentally wrong there, but I don't blame you as many Muslims make this same common mistake. Adam (peace be upon him) was a Muslim who gave exactly the same message which was to be obedient to the one God.

There never was a people without a Warner having lived among them’ 35:24

So, If I am understanding you correctly, Islam is essentially version 3 (to simplify). Judaism - Christianity - Islam?

As in, Judaism was perfect up until it wasn't, then god sent a new prophet(s), which eventually bore Christianity, which was perfect, up until it wasn't, then god sent a new prophet(s), which bore Islam?

I was born in the UK 54 years ago so it's not easy to just leave as my children live here as well.

That is very understandable. There is at least one quality we can likely all agree on - the importance of family.

 

[Vassago]

Aziz you are aware that in many Muslim countries apostasy (in this case rejection of Islam) is illegal and carries the death penalty in some????????

It would appear free will for some Muslims comes at a heavy cost.

Are you aware that some Christian communities marry 12 year olds off and force them into motherhood? What about priests who molest children and get away with it? Religion as a whole is a problem in the world because so many use it to empower and enslave. Catholicism proves this time and time again when they condemn and condone acts the rest of the world finds distasteful.

We even had a pastor here in the US recently say that all gays should be round up, thrown in camps, and executed. Seriously! I don't think the majority of Christians would agree with him, but in his position of power, I guarantee you he has some followers.

 

[Galaxiom]

We even had a pastor here in the US recently say that all gays should be round up, thrown in camps, and executed. Seriously! I don't think the majority of Christians would agree with him, but in his position of power, I guarantee you he has some followers.

Yes but the Bible backs his attitude by telling us that homosexuality is an abomination that deeply insults God.

This is the problem with the Bible. Passages can be found to condone anything, even genocide. This type of justification has certainly been used many times throughout history.

So the issue isn't really about extremism corrupting a wonderful message. Modern religion is about the moderation of a really nasty message and as such the argument that the problem is just extremism is fundamentally flawed.

 

[Galaxiom]

If there is a surplus of women over men, it will to a certain extent result in promiscuity which can affect us as a society.

Let's begin by debunking this fallacy. I will quote figures from Australia's recent census. I see no reason why this should be any different in other countries unless it is manipulated.

The sex ratio at birth is approximately 105 males per 100 females. Higher male mortality rates at younger ages result in the ratio approaching 100 for the 30-64 years age group.
Australian Bureau of Statistics

The sex ratio increases towards women in old age due to higher mortality among men in this age group. If polygyny was to be a benefit then men aught to be marrying old women yet Mohammed preferred very young women.

I'm sure that many westerners have suffered this way. You only need to see what it's become in the west and a cry by people to have things changed. Many innocent people have suffered through divorce thru illicit relations.

Most of the suffering in divorce is through the expectations and prejudice inflicted by the church which demands that marriage is the only circumstance that is appropriate for the upbringing of children. Those of us who have rejected this dogma have managed our lives very differently.

I have had two long term relationships. Among our closest friends my wife and I include our former partners and their partners. Children from all those relationships treat each other as siblings. Moreover we have been thanked by our children for the way we we brought them up. My younger son's partner went so far as to say that she felt she benefited greatly from the spit in her own parent's marriage and the diverse concept of "home and family" that she experienced.

Under sharia law this arrangement would have been forbidden We would probably have been stoned to death for it. Your philosophy is stuck in an ancient and ignorant past. The moral fibre of humanity cannot progress under such an anachronism.

Surely it would be best if men who had the wealth to maintain more than 1 family to marry with honour and treat all the wives with equity.

I love the way the underlying prejudice surfaces in your posts. "Best if men who had the wealth ...", presupposes that the man is the one who automatically has the wealth. Of course this is true under Sharia where women are considered lesser beings. The ignorant bigotry of your religion is clear.

So a wealthy woman should have the right to multiple husbands? The issue you mentioned earlier about not knowing the father is easily overcome by a paternity test. The polyandrous woman would also stand a much better chance of keeping a husband into old age.

Your hatred of Islam has consumed you to such an extent that you fail to see reason.

My disdain for religion is not through failure to see reason but from a comprehension of what it teaches. It is you who has lost the ability to see reason because of your blind love of your religion and it man made doctrine.

If you don't accept the Qur'an, why should you feel denigrated!

Agreed. I would need to respect your religion to care. However the intent to denigrate those who do not accept it is clear. In societies where religion still holds sway this would be a very powerful influence. Fortunately Islam is near irrelevant in Australia.

 

[Galaxiom]

If there is a surplus of women over men, it will to a certain extent result in promiscuity which can affect us as a society.

Here Aziz subtly reveals one of Islam's most deeply offensive doctrines that places all responsibility for promiscuous behaviour upon women.

Hence women are ordered to cover themselves lest they inflame the passions of men would be unable to control themselves at the sight of her flesh or hair.

No responsibility is expected of men to act like humans rather than primitive beasts is expected. Women in Islamist states are routinely punished for being raped on the premise that they should not have placed themselves in a situation where they would have been vulnerable and arguing that they courted the attention and should be punished.

Islamists argue that Muslim counties report very low rates of sexual assault. Hardly surprising in a society where women dare not venture out alone, where the victim is likely to be "honour" killed by her own family, the family of the perpetrator and the authorities.

Meanwhile the likes of Aziz want these kinds of primitive, misogynist values introduced to western societies.

 

[Galaxiom]

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.

002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

So Allah has created the disbelievers so that he can inflict punishment upon them.

At least one thing is clear. Allah, Yhw and Jehovah are indeed of the same spawn.

 

[dan-cat]

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.

This is the truly dangerous reasoning. Don't worry if other people think you are wrong because it has been foretold. You're left with a total disconnection from external stimuli. Nothing but the opinion that tells you to regard no other. Scary stuff.

 

[aziz rasul]

Aziz you are aware that in many Muslim countries apostasy (in this case rejection of Islam) is illegal and carries the death penalty in some????????

It would appear free will for some Muslims comes at a heavy cost.

But there is no Qur'anic verse giving such a punishment! People ARE free to worship what they like. However what non-Muslims are not allowed to do in a Muslim state is to propagate a deviant aspect of Islam or propagate against Islam openly. Apostates during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) were banned. Only under extreme cases would a Muslim state, by their own discretion, decide on the death penalty if the non-Muslim was behaving under extreme circumstances.

Similarly those Muslims who commit murder can be freed or face capital punishment again depending on extreme nature of the crime. The same applies to those who steal, where there can be no punishment or have their hand cut off, again depending on the severity or circumstances of the theft. After all, if a child steals an apple, he isn't going to be treated the same as an adult who steals 1,000,000 Riyals.

Just to clarify, according to Islam, there were humanoids before Adam?

I would say yes, on the basis that God does not say there weren't previous humanoids. God says that he began the creation of Adam (peace be upon him) with earth and water, in other words he was a new creation. People reading this have automatically assumed that there could not have been humanoids before this. However there is no indication from the relevant verses why such an assumption should be made. Jews|Christians I feel have fallen into the same trap.

“Verily, We created them and strengthened (referring to man’s physical constitution) all of them. And when We willed, We replaced them completely by people (qawm) who were of the same kind.”
Qur’an - Surah al-An`aam (The Cattle) 6:133

15. “O mankind! You are the ones who are in need of Allaah. And Allaah! He is the Absolute, the Owner of Praise.
16. If He wanted, he could destroy you and bring about a new creation.
17. And that is not hard for Allaah.”
Qur’an - Surah Faatir (The Originator) 35:15-17

http://ourbeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/admin2/2007/08/what-is-the-origin-of-man.pdf

So, If I am understanding you correctly, Islam is essentially version 3 (to simplify). Judaism - Christianity - Islam?

There is only version 1. True Judaism and Christianity are in fact the religion of Islam. Both Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them) were prophets of Islam and conveyed the same message i.e. to be obedient to the true One God. Allaah is simply the Arabic name for God where al means ‘the’ and laah means ‘God’. Similarly God is known as Eloha (Hebrew) or Alaha (Aramaic). In both cases the first two letters means ‘the’ and last letters mean ‘God’. So a person who died during the time of either of these (or other Muslim prophets) prophets and accepted the prophet of their time and all the previous prophets and accepted the other articles of faith (God, angels, books up to that time, hereafter and destiny) would have died as Muslims and hence will enter heaven. Jews|Christians of today would not come under this category of being generic Muslims as they reject some of the last prophets and the Qur’an. As a result of rejecting these articles they reject God as the prophets and books of God represent the commands of God.

Are you aware that some Christian communities marry 12 year olds off and force them into motherhood? What about priests who molest children and get away with it? Religion as a whole is a problem in the world because so many use it to empower and enslave. Catholicism proves this time and time again when they condemn and condone acts the rest of the world finds distasteful.

I understand. There will be individuals among many communities who will commit such evil acts. But it’s important to separate these acts from the belief where it exists.

We even had a pastor here in the US recently say that all gays should be round up, thrown in camps, and executed. Seriously! I don't think the majority of Christians would agree with him, but in his position of power, I guarantee you he has some followers.

This is another subject which is misunderstood by Jews|Christians|Muslims regarding illegal sexual behaviour. The reason why such acts were punishable from the time od Adam (peace be upon) and onwards was the openness of committing these acts. What people do in private is between them and God. This is why the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because homosexual men were openly asking for boys to indulge with. Lot (peace be upon him) warned them but they did not heed, hence the destruction. Islam does not allow the oppression of homosexuals because they are homosexuals.

Let's begin by debunking this fallacy. I will quote figures from Australia's recent census. I see no reason why this should be any different in other countries unless it is manipulated.

But generally in history women were in surplus to men as men would die from battles.

Under sharia law this arrangement would have been forbidden We would probably have been stoned to death for it. Your philosophy is stuck in an ancient and ignorant past. The moral fibre of humanity cannot progress under such an anachronism.

Didn’t quite understand why you would be stoned to death?

I love the way the underlying prejudice surfaces in your posts. "Best if men who had the wealth ...", presupposes that the man is the one who automatically has the wealth. Of course this is true under Sharia where women are considered lesser beings. The ignorant bigotry of your religion is clear.

Again your lack of knowledge comes up to the surface.

In Islam, men are responsible for financially maintaining their families not the women. Any money that women earn is there’s to keep and spend as they wish. Hence if a Muslim man wants to marry, he can only do so if he has the means.

And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah enriches them of His Bounty. 24:33

030.021 And of His signs is this: He created for you helpmates from yourselves that ye might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect.

"The best among them are those who are kindest to their wives."
Saying of Muhammad (peace be upon him) [Bukhari and Muslim]

So a wealthy woman should have the right to multiple husbands? The issue you mentioned earlier about not knowing the father is easily overcome by a paternity test.

Can you determine how you would have done that hundreds\thousands of years ago?

My disdain for religion is not through failure to see reason but from a comprehension of what it teaches. It is you who has lost the ability to see reason because of your blind love of your religion and it man made doctrine.

It is your hatred and lack of knowledge.

However the intent to denigrate those who do not accept it is clear.

You have been denigrating me as a Muslim.

In societies where religion still holds sway this would be a very powerful influence. Fortunately Islam is near irrelevant in Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...80pc-in-20-years/story-e6frg6nf-1225996403047

Here Aziz subtly reveals one of Islam's most deeply offensive doctrines that places all responsibility for promiscuous behaviour upon women.

You seem to be deeply offended regarding Islam as a whole. This is not the only area. Promiscuity is a practised by both sexes. You are simply taking the subject deliberately out of context by your hatred.

Hence women are ordered to cover themselves lest they inflame the passions of men would be unable to control themselves at the sight of her flesh or hair.

Modesty is required on both sides.

024.030 Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and be modest. That is purer for them. Lo! Allah is aware of what they do.

024.031 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

No responsibility is expected of men to act like humans rather than primitive beasts is expected. Women in Islamist states are routinely punished for being raped on the premise that they should not have placed themselves in a situation where they would have been vulnerable and arguing that they courted the attention and should be punished.

Islamists argue that Muslim counties report very low rates of sexual assault. Hardly surprising in a society where women dare not venture out alone, where the victim is likely to be "honour" killed by her own family, the family of the perpetrator and the authorities.

Meanwhile the likes of Aziz want these kinds of primitive, misogynist values introduced to western societies.

That sounds very much like a rant.

So Allah has created the disbelievers so that he can inflict punishment upon them.

God does not make disbelievers, disbelievers themselves turn away by their own accord. It is the deliberation that makes them denizens if the Hell fire, where they will remain for eternity.

028.050 And if they answer thee not, then know that what they follow is their lusts. And who goeth farther astray than he who followeth his lust without guidance from Allah. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

037.071 And verily most of the men of old went astray before them,

037.072 And verily We sent among them warners.

037.073 Then see the nature of the consequence for those warned,

037.074 Save single-minded slaves of Allah.

037.075 And Noah verily prayed unto Us, and gracious was the Hearer of his prayer

037.076 And We saved him and his household from the great distress,

037.077 And made his seed the survivors,

037.078 And left for him among the later folk (the salutation):

037.079 Peace be unto Noah among the peoples!

037.080 Lo! thus do We reward the good.

037.081 Lo! he is one of Our believing slaves.

037.082 Then We did drown the others.

002.038 We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

002.039 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

 

[John Big Booty]

 

[Galaxiom]

This is another subject which is misunderstood by Jews|Christians|Muslims regarding illegal sexual behaviour. The reason why such acts were punishable from the time od Adam (peace be upon) and onwards was the openness of committing these acts. What people do in private is between them and God.

Men and women marry in public. This is a display of their intention to have sex. Allah is fine with that.

Now in Australia we have debate about the rights of same sex couples to legally marry. The vast majority of Australians support this change although the government is reluctant due to the influence of religious conservatives.

However Australia is a democracy and this change is inevitable given time.

No doubt Sharia would forbid this despite it being the will of the people. This is because Islam is a fascist and deeply discriminator philosophy that leaves its adherents stuck a thousand years in the past.

But generally in history women were in surplus to men as men would die from battles.

Once again you demonstrate that Islam is stuck in the past. Do we reintroduce premature death for young men so the Sharia might make sense or do we change the law to stop discrimination against women? Please answer this question.

Didn’t quite understand why you would be stoned to death?

I had sex with women I was not married to. Is not this in defiance of Sharia?

In Islam, men are responsible for financially maintaining their families not the women. Any money that women earn is there’s to keep and spend as they wish. Hence if a Muslim man wants to marry, he can only do so if he has the means.

An obviously sexist and arbitrary principle. My wife has always earned more than me. We work on our finances together and both contribute to the maintenance of the household.

And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah enriches them of His Bounty. 24:33

I could never have financially supported my wife hence we could never marry under you ridiculous laws, even though she had the means to support us.

Can you determine how you would have [performed a paternity test] that hundreds\thousands of years ago?

No it couldn't be done then but once again you aptly demonstrate the anachronistic nature of Sharia. It is easy now.

Modesty is required on both sides.

Yet the woman is directed to cover herself to a far greater extent than a man who is only told to lower his gaze.

In the western world we seem to get along fine without insisting women swathe themselves in reams of cloth. Could you also explain why the Muslim man is not required to cover himself to the same extent as women.

I have personally spent time naked in mixed company without any problems. This works because decent men do not view women as sex objects. We have seen only too well how some male Muslim immigrants respond to Australian women who do not meet their expectations of "modesty". The rapes were justified by one of the leading mullahs by the hideous statement to the effect "If the meat is left out and a cat eats the meat then it is not the fault of the cat."

God does not make disbelievers, disbelievers themselves turn away by their own accord. It is the deliberation that makes them denizens if the Hell fire, where they will remain for eternity.

More threats. You also failed to acknowledge that Allah had covered my ears so I could not hear His message. Just another incongruous statement in the Qur'an conveniently ignored by the faithful.