Are you an atheist?

[aziz rasul]

Huh? That doesn't make any sense.

Can you explain why in the context of what I wrote?

All those blindly obedient believe this. If you cannot give an example of something that could occur that would prove to you that Islam is false, then your are blindly obedient.

Huh? That doesn't make any sense.

But their is no example of something that could occur that would prove to me that Islam is false.

God tells us that if the Qur'an was from any other than God, there would be many contradictions. There are no contradictions in the Qur'an.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Can you explain why in the context of what I wrote?

Sure. How do you know that men many years ago were not aware of some of these things? Add to that the fact that you are selectively interpreting the Qur'an so that it matches these things. If a book that you believed in, written a thousand years ago said "ye, words will pass through air and water", you could say that showed the book knew about the invention of the telephone. But in truth, it means something totally different, and you're choose to interpret it that way, as you are blindly obedient to it.

But their is no example of something that could occur that would prove to me that Islam is false.

Then you are blindly obedient.

 

[aziz rasul]

Sure. How do you know that men many years ago were not aware of some of these things? Add to that the fact that you are selectively interpreting the Qur'an so that it matches these things. If a book that you believed in, written a thousand years ago said "ye, words will pass through air and water", you could say that showed the book knew about the invention of the telephone. But in truth, it means something totally different, and you're choose to interpret it that way, as you are blindly obedient to it.

Can you give me an example of this from the creation verses I gave previously. If we begin with the first part of Qur'anic verse 21:30

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? ...

What interpretation do you make from this verse with the knowledge that this is the only verse from 6,000+ Qur'anic verses which deals with the moment of creation of the universe. It's also important to note that where the words 'heavens and the earth' are mentioned in the Qur'an this refers to the universe. The word universe is not given in the Qur'an as it's a word that did not exist at the time. I have used Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation but you are free to use any other.

Also you infer that the Qur'anic verses dealing with creation or science are necessarily ambiguous, but they are not. They are actually quite precise. So your assertion that I am blind is wrong unless you can find that to be the case with an example which you have not given.

I would say that you are blind simply because you did not provide an example which shows me that you are not interested in going into any detail in case you find the TRUTH.

Also I would be interested to know who before Alexander Friedmann gave the reason of how the universe began especially 14 centuries ago or beyond.

You will also note that those verses relating to creation|science in the Qur'an are all correct which is a big coincidence even if I play devil's advocate and all the knowledge was available (which it wasn't) at the time, how did man manage to decide which science would be proved right centuries later and ignore all the science that was around at the time that subsequently turned out to be incorrect.

 

[Adam Caramon]

What interpretation do you make from this verse with the knowledge that this is the only verse from 6,000+ Qur'anic verses which deals with the moment of creation of the universe.

My interpretation of that verse would be that the writer believes there are places called "heavens" and that those heavens were connected to the earth. If this is earth as in the planet Earth, or simply dirt or land, as the term earth has been used is uncertain. My interpretation would continue that a group of individuals then severed those connections between the multiple heavens and the earth (or Earth, depending).

Who the "we" is, is uncertain. I would assume that for this group of people (the we) to be able to sever connections between the multiple heavens and the earthly connections, they must have possessed magical abilities or special weapons of some sort as it would seem a task such as this would be beyond mortal ability.

So I guess I wonder would who these individuals were, and what powers they used to follow through with such a task.

Also you infer that the Qur'anic verses dealing with creation or science are necessarily ambiguous, but they are not.

They are not to you because you choose to believe they are automatically correct and infallible. As such, your mind can not possibly conceive any other alternatives. Those alternatives are blocked from your thinking process by your faith.

I would say that you are blind simply because you did not provide an example which shows me that you are not interested in going into any detail in case you find the TRUTH.

But I would assume that you think everyone that is not an adherent to your religion is blind, correct?

Also I would be interested to know who before Alexander Friedmann gave the reason of how the universe began especially 14 centuries ago or beyond.

I do not claim to know, but I question you how you can guarantee snippets or rudimentary parts of such theories did not exist prior to the stated times.

Now a question for you. You say nothing can happen that would prove to you that Islam is false. God is supposedly all-powerful, so if he choose to do so, he could call upon his divine powers and change your brain so that you had never heard of Islam. In fact, he could even turn you into an adherent of another religion, or no religion, etc.

As such, the question to you is, were you wrong in saying that nothing could happen that would prove to you that Islam is false, or is the ability to change your thinking beyond god's powers?

 

[aziz rasul]

they must have possessed magical abilities or special weapons of some sort ...

Adam, me thinks you are taking the mick and have a very fertile imagination. Seems to me that you are doing exactly what you were criticizing me for when you said

.. If a book that you believed in, written a thousand years ago said "ye, words will pass through air and water", you could say that showed the book knew about the invention of the telephone...

I do not claim to know, but I question you how you can guarantee snippets or rudimentary parts of such theories did not exist prior to the stated times.

I agree, you don't know because you wish to turn blindlay away from the truth. It was a challenge I gave you and clearly you have failed miserably.

But I would assume that you think everyone that is not an adherent to your religion is blind, correct?

You would assume wrong. Everyone who deliberately turns away from the TRUTH is blind because they have chosen to be blind.

002.170 And when it is said unto them: Follow that which Allah hath revealed, they
say: We follow that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers
were wholly unintelligent and had no guidance ?

002.171 The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the
likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry.
Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense.

006.104 Proofs have come unto you from your Lord, so whoso seeth, it is for his own
good, and whoso is blind is blind to his own hurt. And I am not a keeper over you.

010.043 And of them is he who looketh toward thee. But canst thou guide the blind even though they see not?

010.044 Lo! Allah wrongeth not mankind in aught; but mankind wrong themselves.

God is supposedly all-powerful, so if he choose to do so, he could call upon his divine powers and change your brain so that you had never heard of Islam. In fact, he could even turn you into an adherent of another religion, or no religion, etc.

As such, the question to you is, were you wrong in saying that nothing could happen that would prove to you that Islam is false, or is the ability to change your thinking beyond god's powers?

God is All Powerful but He uses His powers as He feels fit not what His creatures see fit. God would not be God if we the created decided what He should do.

The unbelievers said similar things.

6:9 They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If we did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them.

 

[Adam Caramon]

Adam, me thinks you are taking the mick and have a very fertile imagination. Seems to me that you are doing exactly what you were criticizing me for when you said

I'm not sure what that means. You asked me for an interpretation of ambiguous text, so I read it and tried to derive what it could possibly mean. Do I claim it is correct? No. But that reinforces my point about everyone's perception being different.

God is All Powerful but He uses His powers as He feels fit not what His creatures see fit. God would not be God if we the created decided what He should do.

So, what was your answer to the question? Are you claiming "god would never do that"? If so, how can a mortal man such as yourself possibly understand the will and mind of an all powerful, ageless, timeless being that created everything?

 

[aziz rasul]

But that reinforces my point about everyone's perception being different.

There's nothing wrong with having a different view but it seemed to me you were mocking the scripture for mocking sake. People in the past have done the same so you are not unique in that sense and they have also denied the TRUTH when it comes to them.

030.010 Then evil was the consequence to those who dealt in evil, because they
denied the revelations of Allah and made a mock of them.

030.011 Allah produceth creation, then He reproduceth it, then unto Him ye will be
returned.

031.006 And of mankind is he who payeth for mere pastime of discourse, that he may
mislead from Allah's way without knowledge, and maketh it the butt of mockery. For
such there is a shameful doom.

031.007 And when Our revelations are recited unto him he turneth away in pride as if
he heard them not, as if there were a deafness in his ears. So give him tidings of a
painful doom.

031.008 Lo! those who believe and do good works, for them are the gardens of
delight,

031.009 Wherein they will abide. It is a promise of Allah in truth. He is the Mighty,
the Wise.

046.026 And verily We had empowered them with that wherewith We have not
empowered you, and had assigned them ears and eyes and hearts; but their ears and
eyes and hearts availed them naught since they denied the revelations of Allah; and
what they used to mock befell them.

So, what was your answer to the question? Are you claiming "god would never do that"? If so, how can a mortal man such as yourself possibly understand the will and mind of an all powerful, ageless, timeless being that created everything?

God created us with free will to choose whichever path we wish in order to test us. It is illogical for him to say this in the Qur'an, which is a Book for all mankind to follow, if they wish, till the end of time. So we understand the will of God through His revelations.

076.002 Lo! We create man from a drop of thickened fluid to test him; so We make
him hearing, knowing.

076.003 Lo! We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving.

The following verses are in reference to Adam and his wife (peace be upon them) [and their future progenies] when they were told to leave the Paradise (Garden of Aden) and come down to Earth.

002.038 We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

002.039 But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

 

[Galaxiom]

I placed many Qur’anic verses in this thread to show that the Qur’an could not be the work of man as the verses talk about science which was unknown at the time of revelation.

Your claim that "the Heavens and Earth were one before We clove them asunder" represents a factual scientific account of reality is quite ridiculous. In fact the Earth and the heavens were never as one but formed by a process of gravitational accretion.

Moreover you completely ignore the fact that the seven earths one under another and the seven heavens above are not found in nature. Also we don't find the heavens are "supported on invisible pillars".

Indeed Mohammed's description is that the Earth is rolled out flat and pegged down by mountains. You simply ignore what you cannot interpret as a match and even your "matches" are tenuous.

You see some occasional tenuous parallels as proof because you have begun with the assumption that the Qur'an is TRUTH. In fact you simply set the bar for proof so low that it is can be easily stepped over by coincidence.

Science sets very high standards for proof and specifically guards against coincidence by statistical analysis. Such an analysis of the Qur'an would unambiguously reject your assertions.

I can give you many examples of where religion and logic do go hand in hand. As a Muslim I obey God after having established that God exists.

Although you feel subjectively satisfied in establishing that God exists your logic is deeply flawed and does not stand up to objective analysis.

In Islam, there is no free mixing of men and women, which is why the issue of a couple doesn’t come into the picture.

This system of apartheid is directly responsible for the pathological nature of the relationship between men and women in Islamic societies in the same way if was for racial apartheid.

But that’s what I said in my last post. Whatever the financial issues a married couple have is their own business. Don’t understand what your objection is as you seem to be agreeing with me?

What you said was that they could not marry if the man could not support the woman.

There is no church in Islam. We have Masjids. So you’re mixing your establishments a bit.

It looks like a church and acts like a church. The difference is semantic.

 

[Galaxiom]

How many western woman would want to marry a man who is unable to support her?

You demonstrate that you really are an anachronism. Modern western women in do not view themselves as dependent on a man.

 

[Galaxiom]

Vast parts of Qur'an are devoted to claiming that God is great and Mohammed has been told the TRUTH while others attest to the terrible suffering that will become those who exercise their free will and fail to worship.

Beyond these assertions there is absolutely NOTHING to back the claims. Something cannot establish its own veracity by simply claiming it is so in the absence of independently verifiable evidence.

 

[Adam Caramon]

There's nothing wrong with having a different view but it seemed to me you were mocking the scripture for mocking sake. People in the past have done the same so you are not unique in that sense and they have also denied the TRUTH when it comes to them.

No, I am not mocking. Simply trying to get you to agree or at last understand that since the language of the Qur'an (or any religious text) is so ambiguous, there will be different interpretations. What is the truth to you, is not the truth to everyone else.

God created us with free will to choose whichever path we wish in order to test us. It is illogical for him to say this in the Qur'an, which is a Book for all mankind to follow, if they wish, till the end of time. So we understand the will of God through His revelations.

You interpret the text based on your own perceptions. Do you really think a being as almighty and powerful can be explained in 1 book? Do you claim to know and understand everything there is to know simply by having read 1 book?

That seems incredibly short-sighted to the point of arrogance.

 

[Galaxiom]

You interpret the text based on your own perceptions. Do you really think a being as almighty and powerful can be explained in 1 book? Do you claim to know and understand everything there is to know simply by having read 1 book?

That seems incredibly short-sighted to the point of arrogance.

A blinked outlook combined with unwavering arrogance are the foundations of the Abrahamic faiths.

You need to remember that these religions base their philosophy on the revelations of a man who was about to ritually murder his son. Anyone who thinks that is a good place to start obviously hasn't really thought much about it.

 

[Mike375]

A blinked outlook combined with unwavering arrogance are the foundations of the Abrahamic faiths.

You need to remember that these religions base their philosophy on the revelations of a man who was about to ritually murder his son. Anyone who thinks that is a good place to start obviously hasn't really thought much about it.

Actually, I have always thought that God testing Abraham indicates a limited god. The ultimate horsepower god does not need to test.

I am inclined to think the Bible is basically correct but our "god" is like a branch manager.

 

[Rabbie]

Actually, I have always thought that God testing Abraham indicates a limited god. The ultimate horsepower god does not need to test.

I am inclined to think the Bible is basically correct but our "god" is like a branch manager.

Welcome back Mike

If the bible is correct then it is quite clear that our god is not a "branch manager" but is the "supremo". The bible is quite clear on this point.

 

[Galaxiom]

If the bible is correct then it is quite clear that our god is not a "branch manager" but is the "supremo". The bible is quite clear on this point.

And judging by the content and apparent lack of action we actually have the cleaner sitting in the CEO's chair pretending to be wise and powerful.

 

[Lightwave]

Incredible peace about duck billed platypus and evolution. I recommend listening to it all quite spectacular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6jHssbcjoA

A true link between reptiles and mammals

 

[dkgurung]

I checked "My God ...." because I am a believer but my faith does not have a specific God. I believe there is only ONE GOD who has numerous names.

 

[Adam Caramon]

An interesting article: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/27/bill-nye-slams-creationism/comment-page-124/#comments

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

I don't think the issue is about "creationism" I mean what God in his right mind is going to sit down and create every single living creature, a really super being would create "evolution" and that's my take on it, God created evolution. Argument over!

 

[Rabbie]

I think many religious fundamentalists would disagree with you there. They are convinced that God created the world in the last 10,000 years and any other beliefs are in their view blasphemous. God setting up evolution is IMO a way of having your cake and eating it. It allows you to still believe in God and not have to reject the scientific evidence.

In my view there is no need to bring the hypothesis of God into the discussion of evolving life.

If there is a god where did he/she/it come from?