Are you an atheist? (1 Viewer)

[Galaxiom]

Did anybody else ever have a logic course that had “Apes and Nuts”, in it?

No. But I would be curious how it was used to teach logic.

 

[Dick7Access]

No. But I would be curious how it was used to teach logic.

I will give it a try but that was over 45 years ago!!!
It started with if A = B and C= B and C = D then D = A
Then Apes = nuts
It seem like there was more to it, but that’s all I remember. I know the Apes and Nuts were in there somehow as the professor said even though we have a lot of fun with Apes and nuts none of your people will remember it by next year. He said he would give the first person that remembered it next year $10. I wrote it down and put it in my wallet. I ran into him and repeated the whole thing for him. He said very good, and walked off and never gave me my $10.

 

[aziz rasul]

Then why don't you let people make their own mind instead of posting your opinion?

That is illogical. I’m posting my own opinion and allowing others to express theirs. I’m not physically forcing others to believe nor would I want to. If I was you haven’t changed your opinion. God addresses people like you in the Qur’an:-


2.121 Those unto whom We have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.


3.149 O ye who believe! if ye obey those who disbelieve, they will make you turn back on your heels, and ye turn back as losers.


6.031 They indeed are losers who deny their meeting with Allah until, when the Hour cometh on them suddenly, they cry: Alas for us, that we neglected it! They bear upon their backs their burdens. Ah, evil is that which they bear!

6.032 Naught is the life of the world save a pastime and a spot. Better far is the abode of the Hereafter for those who keep their duty (to Allah). Have ye then no sense?


7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

7.179 Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having

hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.


8.037 That Allah may separate the wicked from the good, The wicked will He place piece upon piece, and heap them all together, and consign them unto hell. Such verily are the losers.


10.095 And be not thou of those who deny the revelations of Allah, for then wert thou of the losers.

10.096 Lo! those for whom the word of thy Lord (concerning sinners) hath effect will not believe,

10.097 Though every token come unto them, till they see the painful doom.


There are many other verses which I will leave for a later time. As you can see God addresses people more than adequately concerning the disbelievers.

Logic doesn't work like that. Logic is objective. Logic has a basis where each claim is built on foundations that can be traced to more than subjective opinion.

But the opinion was not subjective. There was proper foundation to them but you failed to see it. As the Qur’an says:-


6.039 Those who deny Our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom

Allah will sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path.


17.097 And he whom Allah guideth, he is led aright; while, as for him whom He sendeth astray, for them thou wilt find no protecting friends beside Him, and We shall assemble them on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their habitation will be hell; whenever it abateth, We increase the flame for them.


The example you quoted regarding polygamy and polyandry came from both the Qur’an, Hadith and the opinion of the scholars. There are two reasons why Muslim men can have more than 1 wife.


At the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) there was indeed more women than men but also some women were not desirable for marriage as they had little or no wealth and/or status. Hence there was a danger that some of these women would indulge in prostitution and therefore corrupt society. Hence it was encouraged that men could marry more than one women (providing they qualified) to prevent such corruption. An example of this was when Jaweriya (May Allah be pleased with her) lost her husband in the battle of Uhud and approached Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) for marriage. In some places there are more women to men, which means both issues apply.


You do not agree with anything I say so therefore it was logical to say that you have your own opinion. We agree to disagree. As you are not a believer, your opinion will be radically different to those who do believe. That is a natural consequence between believers and disbelievers.

Your reponse was that you were "entitled to your opinion". That is not only illogical but downright dishonest. Dishonesty always has been part and parcel of religion.

God addresses dishonesty in the following Qur’anic passages:-


16.104 Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, Allah guideth them not and theirs will be a painful doom.

16.105 Only they invent falsehood who believe not Allah's revelations, and (only) they are the liars.

16.106 Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

16.107 That is because they have chosen the life of the world rather than the Hereafter, and because Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

16.108 Such are they whose hearts and ears and eyes Allah hath sealed. And such are the heedless.

16.109 Assuredly in the Hereafter they are the losers.


23.090 Nay, but We have brought them the Truth, and lo! they are liars.

Apes = nuts

Illogical.

 

[scott-atkinson]

I had enough trouble with one wife...!!!!!

 

[Brianwarnock]

Once again Aziz attempts to convince us of his argument by a surfeit of quotes from the Qu'ran. This one

7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

States that Allah sends people astray, why? What is the purpose behind Allah sending people astray, fuel for the fires of hell?

Brian

 

[Brianwarnock]

I had enough trouble with one wife...!!!!!

I noted the past tense, sad.

I think that women are a fabulous species, vastly superior to the male in almost all fields of endeavour , which is why religion, man's invention, attempts to keep them down, in the case of Islam by denying them education and opportunity.
If that is only the fanatics then when are the others going to speak up and loudly condemn them?

Brian

 

[Galaxiom]

I think that women are a fabulous species, vastly superior to the male in almost all fields of endeavour , which is why religion, man's invention, attempts to keep them down, in the case of Islam by denying them education and opportunity.

I wouldn't want to see a world where women didn't have the same opportunities as men. Societies where women are downtrodden are invariably backwards and unpleasant.

Despite claims by muslim men that women are not treated as second class citizens under Islam threir maltreatment is abundantly clear to any objective observer.

Aziz shows us clearly where women stand in Islam.

At the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) there was indeed more women than men but also some women were not desirable for marriage as they had little or no wealth and/or status. Hence there was a danger that some of these women would indulge in prostitution and therefore corrupt society. Hence it was encouraged that men could marry more than one women (providing they qualified) to prevent such corruption.

It isn't just Islam though. The status afforded to women is a blight on all the Abrahamic faiths.

This is because this deplorable philosophy is dreamed up by ancient, ignorant misogynists who arrogantly believed their every thought was an inspired truth. Fundamentally their outlook is naked fascism where an oligarchy decrees every aspect of the lives of all right down to their private lives and assigns brutal punishment to those who fail to comply.

This is no better evident than in the Armageddon prophecy which is held dear by devotees of all branches of the Abrahamic faiths. Their cherished vision is a glorious future where their God murders most of the people on earth leaving only the "true believers". The eager anticipation of the "end days" is one of the reasons so many believers endeavour to initiate religious conflict on a global scale.

Abrahamism is obsessed with death. Hardly surprising from a faith whose founding event happened when a psychopath about to murder his son experienced a brief moment of sanity and decided that a god did not require him to do it.

Modern medicine tells us that these so called prophets are no more special than people who are experiencing an epileptic seizure of the temporal lobes of the brain. This is known to stimulate hyperreligious hallucinations.

 

[Dick7Access]

The abuse is not just reserved for women. Circumcision is the mutilation of male infants without consent. It's a barbaric religious tradition, that has only one purpose CONTROL.

Male circumcision practised as a religious rite is found in texts of the Hebrew Bible, as part of the Abrahamic covenant, such as in Genesis 17, and is therefore practised by Jews and Muslims and some Christians, who constitute the Abrahamic religions. However even before the covenant of Abraham the aposthis of Shem may have served as an inspiration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_male_circumcision

Some how we have gotten past "Pork and Shell Fish" surely we can get past this.

Did you know that automobiles imported into Arab countries have to have 3 inches cut off the exhaust pipe.

 

[Vassago]

I firmly believe that no body modifications should be done on any child too young to voice their opinion and decide for themself that they would like such modification unless it is done for truly medical reasons. Circumcism has been proven to be purely cosmetic. The only excuse I've found to do it for medical reasons had to do with ease of cleanliness. Surely, there is no need to remove skin from your baby to ease your own inability to keep them clean.

I believe the same with ear piercings. If a baby can't even speak yet, they certainly have no need for their ears to be stabbed, likely with a gun at a flyby jewelry shop, notorious for unclean piercings. Let them grow up a little and decide for themselves if they want their ears pierced rather than satisfying your own vanity by taking that choice from them before they can speak.

Those are my two cents anyway.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Whilst I agree with Vass in general we must realise that circumcision has been a rite of passage into adult hood in some cultures for a long time and only Judaism demands it for religious reasons.

As to the cleanliness issue we must not think only in terms of developed countries were it is obviously easy, in undeveloped countries it may not be so simple. I have read that the incidence of STDs and especially HIV is greatly reduced in circumcised heterosexual males in Africa. This due to a reduction in the cells that encourage the growth of HIV. Also something called smeg, a combination of dead skin and oils, can gather under the foreskin.

Female circumcision now called FGM should certainly be banned by all civilised people's.

Brian

 

[Vassago]

Whilst I agree with Vass in general we must realise that circumcision has been a rite of passage into adult hood in some cultures for a long time and only Judaism demands it for religious reasons.

As to the cleanliness issue we must not think only in terms of developed countries were it is obviously easy, in undeveloped countries it may not be so simple. I have read that the incidence of STDs and especially HIV is greatly reduced in circumcised heterosexual males in Africa. This due to a reduction in the cells that encourage the growth of HIV. Also something called smeg, a combination of dead skin and oils, can gather under the foreskin.

Female circumcision now called FGM should certainly be banned by all civilised people's.

Brian

STD issues shouldn't be a problem for those who are too young to decide they would like it done. At a certain age, you can decide for yourself. What age is up for debate, but certainly no babies can give that consent and shouldn't have STD risks as a concern.

I agree about female "circumcision." Cultural influences are a tough thing to debate about. The best thing we can do is encourage education about the risks vs rewards. There is certainly no need fro that practive to continue today.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Vass , I did say that I agreed with you generally but maybe I should have worded it better before broadening the discussion.


Brian

 

[Vassago]

I understood your point. If there are health benefits that can be obtained through male circumcism, then one can absolutely decide to get the procedure done at an age where those medical benefits would work. It's still a decision that someone can maek for themselves.

 

[aziz rasul]

Once again Aziz attempts to convince us of his argument by a surfeit of quotes from the Qu'ran.

What better than to let God do the talking as much as possible. After all it is God we will have to answer to on the Day of Judgement.

States that Allah sends people astray, why? What is the purpose behind Allah sending people astray, fuel for the fires of hell?

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
002.008 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
002.009 They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
002.010 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.

042.013 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

002.152 Therefore remember Me, I will remember you. Give thanks to Me, and reject not Me.

The meaning of God sending people astray is that those people who reject the truth, Gods turns His ‘back’ on them which means they will wander and never receive God’s guidance and hence left to their own devices. If these people then turn towards seeking the truth or those who already are aware of the truth turn back towards their Creator, God gives them guidance again. So guidance or misguidance is dependent on our actions. As God says, those who walk towards Me, I will run towards them, metaphorically speaking of course. God does not at random decide who He will guide and who He will leave from guidance.

Those who end up in Paradise or Hell fire will do so because of their actions.

There are many people out there who were disbelievers and who now are believers. God be Praised.

… in the case of Islam by denying them education and opportunity

Can you supply a Qur’anic verse that corroborates this, otherwise it’s just a rant which gets us nowhere. Note there are non-Muslim fanatics as well. Many exist in the so called Christian world. Remember the Iraq invasion. 650,000 deaths, ring any bells?

Aziz shows us clearly where women stand in Islam.

Galaxiom, your poisoned mind seems to be at work again and tends to be uni-directional unfortunately. There is nothing in what I said condemns women. What was being condemned was prostitution which applies as a sin to both men and women as both are parties to it. The purpose of multiple marriages was to keep both men and women clean from such acts and as a result build a better society for all.

 

[aziz rasul]

When I was a baby I had all sorts of injections without my consent. Perhaps we should stop all these as well. After all if contract any diseases, so what! Let's hope we don't die before we are old enough to give consent.

 

[Vassago]

When I was a baby I had all sorts of injections without my consent. Perhaps we should stop all these as well. After all if contract any diseases, so what! Let's hope we don't die before we are old enough to give consent.

There were immediate medical benefits from those injections. It wasn't purely a cosmetic decision. There is a huge difference between vaccinations and circumcism.

 

[Brianwarnock]

:banghead: :banghead:


7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

I quoted the above from a post by Aziz and asked why Allah would send people astray. In the reply Aziz stated that those who had rejected Allah would... But hang on , where does it say these people had rejected Allah , it just states the he is going to send some astray.

You never get a straight answer from Aziz , he twists everything and drowns you in meaningless quotes. When he first started posting I had hoped for a useful dialogue but that hope was soon dashed and it has just got worse.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

It wasn't purely a cosmetic decision.

Circumcision is a medical benefit and not cosmetic. That's why I said what I said about the other medical injections.

 

[Dick7Access]

:banghead: :banghead:


7.178 He whom Allah leadeth, he indeed is led aright, while he whom Allah sendeth astray - they indeed are losers.

I quoted the above from a post by Aziz and asked why Allah would send people astray. In the reply Aziz stated that those who had rejected Allah would... But hang on , where does it say these people had rejected Allah , it just states the he is going to send some astray.

You never get a straight answer from Aziz , he twists everything and drowns you in meaningless quotes. When he first started posting I had hoped for a useful dialogue but that hope was soon dashed and it has just got worse.

Brian

Brian,
While I agree with most of what you have posted on this thread, and agree with nothing Aziz posted, I appreciate more you staying mostly with logic and not personality.
Dick

 

[aziz rasul]

Brian, I gave you a straight answer. I can't help if you don't understand or appreciate the answer. A useful dialogue works both ways.

where does it say these people had rejected Allah

You have to read the Qur'an in full to get the detailed information you need. I neither have the time or scope to teach every minutia of detail on every verse. I assume that contributors who are interested do some research on your own to find the answers. I have tried to give us much detail as is possible wherever I can. In the issue of being led astray I gave enough information to give direction. You need to read the whole post and not pick bits out and then use that as a point of discussion. That's not what I would call cricket.

Just as someone posts a problem here on this forum, you can't expect on every occasion to do all the work for the poster. There are occasions where it may be required. So I would like some positive contribution from you Brian rather than rude sound bites which makes no contribution.

Here's part of the answer again in case you didn't bother to read it:-

The meaning of God sending people astray is that those people who reject the truth, Gods turns His ‘back’ on them which means they will wander and never receive God’s guidance and hence left to their own devices. If these people then turn towards seeking the truth or those who already are aware of the truth turn back towards their Creator, God gives them guidance again. So guidance or misguidance is dependent on our actions. As God says, those who walk towards Me, I will run towards them, metaphorically speaking of course. God does not at random decide who He will guide and who He will leave from guidance.

002.152 Therefore remember Me, I will remember you. Give thanks to Me, and reject not Me.

Please explain the medical benefit of infant circumcision?

I'm sure you could look that up on Google. There are of course other search engines.