Are you an atheist?

[aziz rasul]

If people cherry-pick or indeed express an opinion that is against one people, it may be that there is a specific area of discussion that is taking place and hence it's inevitable that you will show specific verses. This does not imply that the view is not being expressed in context to the discussion point. After all when I quote the verses, I give references so that posters can check and bring alternative verses if they wish. There is nothing to hide when you have the truth.

As far as independent evidence is concerned, we have to satisfy ourselves as individuals as judgement will be based on our beliefs and deeds. But performing good deeds on their own will not itself enable the individual to enter Paradise. They will of course be rewarded in this life but not share in the Hereafter and go to Paradise.

2.177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-fearing.

9.071 And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise.
9.072 Allah promiseth to the believers, men and women, Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide - blessed dwellings in Gardens of Eden. And - greater (far)! - acceptance from Allah. That is the supreme triumph.

 

[Bladerunner]

In fact there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ was any more a real person than Harry Potter. Despite the remarkable claims made about Christ's ability not one contemporary comment about his existence survives to this day. The entire story is limited to a single book written in Greek decades after his supposed lifetime.

Like Harry Potter, Jesus was capable of super human feats. This further suggests that the story is complete fiction.

The story of Jesus is well known because it was retold by many. It became even more widespread when the storytellers advised they would kill anyone who failed to accept the story and follow their rules.

Religion is resorted to by those too intellectually pathetic to back their philosophical viewpoints with intelligent discussion. Instead they simply claim a special relationship with "ultimate truth" that is beyond question.



So you don't even know how many "scientists" are saying so? Not much credibility to your claim there. However many they number they are still far less than the scientists who state that Darwin's Theory of Evolution is the most well established of all scientific theories.

Moreover, simply "stating" something carries no weight in science. Settling the "facts" on the basis of supposed "authority" is the premise of religion not science. The Church insisted that the Sun went around the Earth but it didn't make them right.

Science is based on evidence and the evidence to support Evolution leaves no room for doubt in any intelligent analysis not polluted by the bias of religious doctrine.

I find it remarkable that some of the faithful still cling to their silly creation myths when science has repeatedly shown that the Bible is wrong. Even the Church accepts evolution is real.

I would suggest you read the book "Killing Jesus" by Bill O'Reilly. Before you get started, he wrote it without a word of scripture, all history.


Have a nice day

Bladerunner

 

[scott-atkinson]

Aziz,

Thankyou for responding to my comments and my views on what I believe. It made for very interesting reading, and I enjoyed reading the passages that you highlighted in your post, and the explanation of them after was very good and helped me to understand them better.

I am happy with what and who I am and what I believe / don't believe in so I am not about to rush out and join Islam, but neither am I about to rush out and join Judaism or Christianity.

Religion does bring a lot of people in this world hope, and in some ways, I feel that the Hell Fire that you speak of, and all other references to Hell in other religions is actually life on Earth... for the majority of people it is a daily struggle just to get by, and I'm sure that at one point or another they have felt subjected to Hell in their lives...

Religion, however I believe is used by the minority as an excuse to perpetrate attrocities against their fellow man, and perhaps without it, motives would be more black and white.. That being said, whether Muslim, Christian, or Jew, the majority should not be held responsible for the Minority... Muslims across the world have had bad press because of the Minority, and the Islamic faith so I understand is based around peace and love not hatred..

I do believe in the theory of Evolution as laid out by Darwin, but also feel that something is missing... if Natural Selection as described is the cause, then surely there should be other equally sentinent beings on earth other than just mankind, for me there is something missing, some kind of intervention into the Natural Selection that made Mankind leap head and shoulders above every other Life Form on earth... whether this be Divine Intervention, or something else I simply do not know, but I think something is missing, and the story of our Evolution has more to tell...

 

[Galaxiom]

I would suggest you read the book "Killing Jesus" by Bill O'Reilly. Before you get started, he wrote it without a word of scripture, all history.

History perhaps but absolutely nothing contemporaneous with the time Jesus was supposed to have lived.

He doesn't even get a mention until Josephus who wrote on the history of the Jews in about 93 CE. There are no first hand accounts of Jesus whatsoever.

 

[Bladerunner]

History perhaps but absolutely nothing contemporaneous with the time Jesus was supposed to have lived.

He doesn't even get a mention until Josephus who wrote on the history of the Jews in about 93 CE. There are no first hand accounts of Jesus whatsoever.

think Bill is smarter than both of us put together. just read the book.


Have a nice day

Bladerunner

 

[scott-atkinson]

I would suggest you read the book "Killing Jesus" by Bill O'Reilly. Before you get started, he wrote it without a word of scripture, all history.


Have a nice day

Bladerunner

I have read the first few pages of this book on Amazon.

It appears to be a story rather than a historical record, the fact that in one sentance the author rights that "King Herod stood looking out his window", well how does he know, was he there...!!!

Seems like a work of fiction to me and not a historical account at all, or perhaps that is just my impression from how it is written..

But I certainly would not take that book as historical fact...

 

[Galaxiom]

think Bill is smarter than both of us put together. just read the book.

Regardless of how "smart" he is, the fact remains that there is absolutely no direct evidence to support the the notion that Jesus ever existed in real life. If he had come up with anything of worth he would be a famous historian.

At best the book will be extrapolation upon supposition written specially to be lapped up by millions of Christians who seek evidence to support their faith.

 

[Galaxiom]

Religion does bring a lot of people in this world hope, and in some ways, I feel that the Hell Fire that you speak of, and all other references to Hell in other religions is actually life on Earth... for the majority of people it is a daily struggle just to get by, and I'm sure that at one point or another they have felt subjected to Hell in their lives...

And many have been subjected to Hell on Earth by religion. Homosexuals and children taken from their unmarried mothers to name a couple.

Religion, however I believe is used by the minority as an excuse to perpetrate attrocities against their fellow man, and perhaps without it, motives would be more black and white..

Perhaps you should read the Bible. The motives are printed right there in black and white. Those who sincerely follow the Bible are commanded to kill those who do not conform to its laws.

That being said, whether Muslim, Christian, or Jew, the majority should not be held responsible for the Minority... Muslims across the world have had bad press because of the Minority, and the Islamic faith so I understand is based around peace and love not hatred..

You had better read the Qu'ran too then. Like the Bible the Qu'ran offers blessing to those who conform to the doctrine and promises infinite punishment to those who don't. That is not about love but raw fascism.

Those who believe in the divinity of these books validate the action of those who follow it. They are responsible.

I do believe in the theory of Evolution as laid out by Darwin, but also feel that something is missing... if Natural Selection as described is the cause, then surely there should be other equally sentinent beings on earth other than just mankind,

Many other species have complex social lives. As to their sentience you apparently judge them on human values. How can you truly know the level of sentience of another species?

Consider the life of a cetacean whose members appear to be the most sentient of the ocean creatures. However they are still mammals and we can perhaps relate to them in some way. Now consider a cephalopod. Their intelligence is indisputable but obviously very different from ours. What would we understand of their sentience?

for me there is something missing, some kind of intervention into the Natural Selection that made Mankind leap head and shoulders above every other Life Form on earth...

There is very little genetic difference between humans and the other great apes. The keys that put us where we are are few.

Our ability to communicate abstractly is crucial. We have this advantage partly through a comparatively flat hearing response curve. A chimpanzee has strong peaks at 1 khz and 8 kHz. We are also able to make a greater range of sounds.

Of course our larger brain is fundamental to communication and logic too. One of the contributing factors to our large brain case was a mutation similar to the one that causes the disease Muscular Dystrophy. In particular it resulted in our jaw muscles being vastly weaker allowing the skull to enlarge.

whether this be Divine Intervention, or something else I simply do not know, but I think something is missing, and the story of our Evolution has more to tell...

There is no need for intervention. Our position of dominance of all multicellular organisms on this planet is simply what happened. It could have been different but it wasn't.

However it is sobering to remember that single cellular organisms are and have always been the dominant life form on this planet. They are found literally everywhere from miles under the surface and from the coldest to the hottest environments. Their total mass far exceeds that of all other organisms combined.

If you doubt what life form really dominates this planet just contemplate what used to happen with infections before antibiotics and how quickly the microorganisms have overcome them.

 

[scott-atkinson]

Galaxiom, you make a very compelling and fact filled argument supported by Logic..

 

[dan-cat]

It is always important to remain open minded to new ideas even though they may differ from our own we all have a right to believe in what we believe I just ask that everyone questions beliefs when they restrict others.

Interesting clip

Who really knows what is best for themselves let alone others.

I you say "I am right" you are almost always wrong.

That clip really flew in the face of all the different stereotypes laid down in this thread.

A church attending, intelligent individual raised by religious gay parents.

It didn't fit into any 'certainties' described in this thread so far.

 

[aziz rasul]

In fact there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus Christ was any more a real person than Harry Potter.

3.184 And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
3.185 Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.
3.186 Assuredly ye will be tried in your property and in your persons, and ye will hear much wrong from those who were given the Scripture before you, and from the idolaters. But if ye persevere and ward off (evil), then that is of the steadfast heart of things.

35.004 And if they deny thee, (O Muhammad), messengers (of Allah) were denied before thee. Unto Allah all things are brought back.
35.005 O mankind! Lo! the promise of Allah is true. So let not the life of the world beguile you, and let not the (avowed) beguiler beguile you with regard to Allah.
35.006 Lo! the devil is an enemy for you, so treat him as an enemy. He only summoneth his faction to be owners of the flaming Fire.
35.007 Those who disbelieve, theirs will be an awful doom; and those who believe and do good works, theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward.
35.008 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe) ? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!

 

[Vassago]

3.184 And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee, who came with miracles and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
3.185 Every soul will taste of death. And ye will be paid on the Day of Resurrection only that which ye have fairly earned. Whoso is removed from the Fire and is made to enter paradise, he indeed is triumphant. The life of this world is but comfort of illusion.
3.186 Assuredly ye will be tried in your property and in your persons, and ye will hear much wrong from those who were given the Scripture before you, and from the idolaters. But if ye persevere and ward off (evil), then that is of the steadfast heart of things.

35.004 And if they deny thee, (O Muhammad), messengers (of Allah) were denied before thee. Unto Allah all things are brought back.
35.005 O mankind! Lo! the promise of Allah is true. So let not the life of the world beguile you, and let not the (avowed) beguiler beguile you with regard to Allah.
35.006 Lo! the devil is an enemy for you, so treat him as an enemy. He only summoneth his faction to be owners of the flaming Fire.
35.007 Those who disbelieve, theirs will be an awful doom; and those who believe and do good works, theirs will be forgiveness and a great reward.
35.008 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan's dupe) ? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!

Other than relying on religious texts written long after his supposed death, can you point out any evidence he existed? Any physical evidence found that isn't linked to some conspiracy website? Anything recognized by any trusted archeological sources? Same with any other prophets for that matter.

 

[Vassago]

Other than relying on religious texts written long after his supposed death, can you point out any evidence he existed? Any physical evidence found that isn't linked to some conspiracy website? Anything recognized by any trusted archeological sources? Same with any other prophets for that matter.

You're quoting a religious text written by people. Sure, they claimed to be through God's words, but almost every religion believes man is imperfect. Who's to know for sure that what they said was true? How can we possibly know?

 

[Galaxiom]

Other than relying on religious texts written long after his supposed death, can you point out any evidence he existed? Any physical evidence found that isn't linked to some conspiracy website? Anything recognized by any trusted archeological sources? Same with any other prophets for that matter.

Mohammed existed. He is the only "prophet" for which there is any evidence.

However he didn't actually do anything special. No miracles at all. That is why the Jews declined to recognise his status as a prophet, prompting him to start his own religion.

He just ranted on like a mad man. Read the Qu'ran and you will see he repeated things over and over. His behaviour was entirely consistent with someone experiencing epileptic seizures of the temporal lobes of the brain.

 

[Rabbie]

Mohammed existed. He is the only "prophet" for which there is any evidence.

However he didn't actually do anything special. No miracles at all. That is why the Jews declined to recognise his status as a prophet, prompting him to start his own religion.

He just ranted on like a mad man. Read the Qu'ran and you will see he repeated things over and over. His behaviour was entirely consistent with someone experiencing epileptic seizures of the temporal lobes of the brain.

It would be interesting if you could link to the evidence that Mohammed existed. The we could jut just how reliable the evidence is

 

[Bladerunner]

QUOTE=Rabbie;1317133]It would be interesting if you could link to the evidence that Mohammed existed. The we could jut just how reliable the evidence is[/QUOTE]


Oh, he lived. There are three parts to the Koran You have to read all of them to finally realize just what kind of man he really was. Ruthless warrior, Polygamy (married a 13 year old) and then wrote about killing everyone who did not believe in him or his God.

Jesus lived as well and it is well documented. If you want a historical (only) reading of Jesus, purchase on line the "Killing of Jesus". No, it does not have anything religious about it but is a historical documentary of Jesus Christ and the Roman Empire.

One other thing, My friend "Glaxiom" always refers to "Abraham's God" that killed without pity, etc. Yet in the New Testament (written AD), Jesus Christ speaks of nothing but "Love" and "forgiveness". It does not say to Kill non-believers but rather teach them about the word and love of Jesus Christ.

Christmas (December 25th) in the christian community is celebrated as the Birth of Jesus Christ.. Yes, I know it is probably not the exact day he was born but it is a day of celebration. By all accounts, I should have quit while I was ahead a while ago buuuuuuuut

I do want to wish everyone on Access World Forums a "Merry Christmas" and hope that you and your families (regardless of how you believe) have a safe and happy Holiday Season.

and To All A Good Night :>)

Bladerunner

p.s. To All , Thanks for all your help throughout the year in my endeavor to understand and learn Access.

 

[Brianwarnock]

Rabbie
There was a three part series called The Life of Mohammed on BBC earlier this year. It featured interviews with history and religious "experts" talking about his life. He did not appear to be quite as bad as Bladerunner paints , but was certainly a man of his time.

Brian

 

[Galaxiom]

[Mohammad] did not appear to be quite as bad as Bladerunner paints , but was certainly a man of his time.

Exactly. The world was a much cruder place. I have little doubt that some of the social policies instigated under religious rules had immediate benefits for many people at a time when nasty people got away with anything.

Where religion and indeed any other political philosophy oversteps the mark is the point where they insist that an oligarchy is able to decree the absolute truth of all matters through a divine inspiration that cannot be questioned.

Absolute rule is the foundation tenet of fascism and it is fundamental to the structure of the monotheistic faiths.

 

[Dick7Access]

Exactly. The world was a much cruder place. I have little doubt that some of the social policies instigated under religious rules had immediate benefits for many people at a time when nasty people got away with anything.

Where religion and indeed any other political philosophy oversteps the mark is the point where they insist that an oligarchy is able to decree the absolute truth of all matters through a divine inspiration that cannot be questioned.

Absolute rule is the foundation tenet of fascism and it is fundamental to the structure of the monotheistic faiths.

Point well made

 

[ColinEssex]

It would be interesting if you could link to the evidence that Mohammed existed. The we could jut just how reliable the evidence is

It would be interesting if someone could produce evidence that Jesus existed, instead of relying on heresay and folklore and the writings of a probably drunk scribe.Its a bit like believing in Santa Claus yet knowing deep down its is all a sham.

Religion is no different yet millions worldwide believe it to be true, what actually possesses usually sane people to believe such obvious claptrap? Religion turns them from normal people into religious freaks.

Col