Are you an atheist?

[Alc]

As fara as I am concerned, I want everybody to have medical care regardless of who they are, I just don;t want to pay for those people out in california from TN. I will halp take care of My fellow Tennesseans.

So you don't believe in the United States of America ideal, where the strengths in one area can help offset the weaknesses in another? Not saying you should, just asking. Would it perhaps suit you better if the country devolved into load of separate state nations? You could sit back and watch the "poorer" states fail while others flourished. I assume it's not only with healthcare that you think there should be no sharing. No doubt you would also like the government to stop providing the almost 40% of Tennessee's state revenue. You know, just in case some of it comes from another state.
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/
Tennessee is doing pretty well on that ranking, but I doubt it would be doing AS well, if it were cut off from the rest of the country because of helpful Christians.

As far as minimum wage goes, WHat the market will bare is all there is. It is called capitalism. That is unless the gov. is going to tell McDonalds how much to pay their employees (more all the time) resulting in fewer people working and businesses going out of business.

No, it's called "accepting a system and not wanting to rock the boat because I'm doing alright and f*ck the poor".

 

[Alc]

Yep, sure looks like a pterodactyl to me.

No, wait, you're just an idiot.

Come on, it has wings and.......erm....

 

[AccessBlaster]

What the HELL is wrong with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!..Those People,,,,,,Citizens of California......(ALL ALLL ALLLLLLLLL Citizens of California.

Blade

, etc.

Here is a definition of the word "those".
pronoun

1. Those is defined as specific things, people or places indicated.
   An example of those used as a pronoun is in the sentences, "Some of the socks are dirty. Those are the ones that need to be washed," which means the dirty socks are the ones that need to be washed.
   Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/those#qh1C7ZAjRbQSgCAW.99
   
   It's clear that California has lots of gays and liberals and pretty much everything else under the sun. This wasn't about "States Rights", it was about pointing a self-righteous finger to the west.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Blade, in the last several exchanges, I have tried to point out that you have a very narrow viewpoint on religion that excludes others who disagree with your viewpoint. For the sake of argument, ignore the atheist responses, please, for THIS ONE QUESTION.

We see many different religious viewpoints among many different denominations, including parent denominations and child denominations. I.e. There are Calvinist variants, Methodism being one of them. There are Baptist denominations, with several dozen variations. You have evangelical and charasmatic groups. Let's not forget the Catholic church, Greek Orthodox church, and several others from the Mediterranean area. ALL of them claim to follow the teachings of Christ, yet each of them differs in some way from the others in anything from nit-picking fine points to broad-brush major differences.

You claim that all of them EXCEPT your own brand of religion are misguided and incorrect. My question is therefore:

Can you not see the implied arrogance of such a position when there is no way to actually prove what you say except by argument based on interpretation (which, by its nature, is subjective)?

Can you step away from the curb long enough to see that EVERY OTHER PERSON who follows the teachings in one of the denominations described earlier has just as strong a belief that THEY are right and YOU are wrong?

Remember, I'm not even asking you to consider that atheism, agnosticism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and animism might be right for this ONE question. My comments are intended to be narrowly construed among the various followers of Christ as embodied in the plethora of religions that follow the Holy Bible in whatever edition you like.

Now, the short form of the same question: Who died and made you God, that you could make such sweeping claims about whose beliefs are right and wrong?

 

[Bladerunner]

Come on, it has wings and.......erm....

Let me use this again,,, What is wrong with YOU PEOPLE!

I put a picture on the thread that for all intents and purposes looked almost like a
pterodactyl at least to me. There was NO suggestion other than that offered.

I did not care if it was or it was not one,,,It was the Picture that I was talking about... Maybe I should have said something about the snake. You all have flipped you lids.......LOL......oh, I know your going to say something about that as well.

. I knew it was a flying fox. Lighten up a little Please,,,,,,

blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Here is a definition of the word "those".
pronoun

1. Those is defined as specific things, people or places indicated.
   An example of those used as a pronoun is in the sentences, "Some of the socks are dirty. Those are the ones that need to be washed," which means the dirty socks are the ones that need to be washed.
   Read more at http://www.yourdictionary.com/those#qh1C7ZAjRbQSgCAW.99
   
   It's clear that California has lots of gays and liberals and pretty much everything else under the sun. This wasn't about "States Rights", it was about pointing a self-righteous finger to the west.

Since DOC threw it out there,,,,,,Who died and made you GOD!! Since only God knows what is in my heart.

California is one of the states that is in financial distress and needs help from my tax dollars. If you are ok with that ,,,it is fine by me.

As for THOSE PEOPLE, Gays, liberals annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd ,,,,Yes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,CONSERVATIVES among OTHERS out there, need to get things fixed before I would agree to send them any money. Having said that,,, I have no say in it so all I can do is voice my discontent and you got to grip with that. WHo put a burr under your saddle.

Thanks DOC

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Blade, in the last several exchanges, I have tried to point out that you have a very narrow viewpoint on religion that excludes others who disagree with your viewpoint. For the sake of argument, ignore the atheist responses, please, for THIS ONE QUESTION.
You claim that all of them EXCEPT your own brand of religion are misguided and incorrect. My question is therefore:?

Have no religion.......no denomination...... Also I have not claimed that all are incorrect. What I said was according to the Bible,,,correct.
As far as the other denominations viewpoints, I offer this. If they have strayed away from Jesus Christ, They are wrong!

We see many different religious viewpoints among many different denominations, including parent denominations and child denominations. I.e. There are Calvinist variants, Methodism being one of them. There are Baptist denominations, with several dozen variations. You have evangelical and charasmatic groups. Let's not forget the Catholic church, Greek Orthodox church, and several others from the Mediterranean area. ALL of them claim to follow the teachings of Christ, yet each of them differs in some way from the others in anything from nit-picking fine points to broad-brush major differences.?

Some of them as you stated many times are there for control of the people. Now, I am sure you remember what I said but here it is again.....
The Bible (Word of God) states that to have an eternal life, all you have to do is believe in Jesus. I have no say in it. If the Man-made (Local) churches tell you something else then they are border of being Apostic. Believe me when I say, there are many of them out there that are where apostasy is abundant.

Can you not see the implied arrogance of such a position when there is no way to actually prove what you say except by argument based on interpretation (which, by its nature, is subjective)???

All I can see is your arrogance, since you were of another denomination and left,,,___WHY????you could not believe the way they do? (Don't want to know what it was either....please).

Can you step away from the curb long enough to see that EVERY OTHER PERSON who follows the teachings in one of the denominations described earlier has just as strong a belief that THEY are right and YOU are wrong??

But they will tell you what I say is right and then they will also tell you (i.e. Catholic Church) have to confess your sins to the Priest to get forgiveness from God?????? SOME (not all) have other idiosyncrasies the tend to run people away. It is why you have so many (mom and pop) Child versions.. People like you know what is right and wrong and they compare that to what they believe and if it is not right---well.

Now, the short form of the same question: Who died and made you God, that you could make such sweeping claims about whose beliefs are right and wrong?

I will not even try to answer this question, but I did get the chance to use it.....Hope you did not mind or not.
Hope you have a better day tomorrow, I really do care even if you do not believe.
Blade

 

[The_Doc_Man]

All I can see is your arrogance, since you were of another denomination and left,,,___WHY????you could not believe the way they do? (Don't want to know what it was either....please).

But your question deserves a straight-up, simple answer. I left Methodism, not for another denomination, but for the inability to buy in to the continuous stream of non-answer answers that I kept on getting. When you finally get the guts to confront those beliefs inside yourself and ask from where they originated, the answer is that they came from someone else - who had no better line to the subject matter than I did. Why did I leave Christianity (in ANY of its forms) for atheism? Because none of the arguments made sense any more. None of the proofs of religious truth were in fact proofs. None of the claims made sense.

It boils down to a realization that religion is the hollow promise of the parents telling their child that the boogie man won't get you because a friendly spirit will intervene. But, like Neo in The Matrix.... suddenly you come to realize... "there IS no spoon." Just as I finally realized that there IS no boogie man; there IS no friendly protective spirit. It is all just the formless fear in all of us when we confront the unknown.

I was able to put it into perspective. Before my parents conceived me, I didn't exist. When I die, I won't exist. There was no pain before my conception. There will be no pain after my death. The Old Testament actually TELLS you this, when speaking of the peace of the grave and how the spirits of the dead in the grave no longer actively affect the living. Both Psalms and Ecclesiastes refer to this. In death we cease all thought and lose all cognizance of our surroundings.

Of course, to a primitive mind, this is a condition inducing terror because they know only life. They can't expand their minds to embrace the ephemeral nature of life and existence in general.

You might be thinking that my question could be applied to me: Who died and made me God? But the correct question is: Who died and convinced me that there IS no God? To which the answer is, a lot of people I know who died despite being good people.

When death appears to be random; when catastrophes appear due to random geologic or meteorologic causes; when innocent children die of painful, debilitating diseases; when all sorts of bad things happen - they point to the randomness of life. When life is random, talk of a "plan" for all of us is a crock. The ONLY plan you can describe that has half a chance of being true is this one: We are born; we live; we die; we rot.

 

[Alc]

When death appears to be random; when catastrophes appear due to random geologic or meteorologic causes; when innocent children die of painful, debilitating diseases; when all sorts of bad things happen - they point to the randomness of life. When life is random, talk of a "plan" for all of us is a crock. The ONLY plan you can describe that has half a chance of being true is this one: We are born; we live; we die; we rot.

The fact that you were able to reason your way out of religion is genuinely very impressive. For the majority, the inconsistencies you commented on could easily be explained away using flawed logic, wishful thinking and a determination to not want to admit the possibility of being wrong. The catch-all answers of "It isn't for us to question how god operates", "We can't understand his reasons" and "He moves in mysterious ways" are depressing proof of this.

What I sometimes forget is that this isn't like being a lifelong fan of a sports team or an ardent supporter of a politician. In those cases, if people find out that the team/person they passionately believed in was corrupt, there's anger, sometimes denial, disappointment, but ultimately acceptance. For the passionately indoctrinated, it's more like a scientist suddenly finding out that that the Earth's rottation is caused by unicorns. Accepting it would mean a complete revision of everything you base your ideas on and while a scientist is, by definition, open to changing ideas, a religious person doesn't have that fallback.

In many, many cases, if you ask someone who believes in god why he/she does or doesn't do something, the reason given is that the bible or god tells them to/not to. These types of people are saying that they're unable to make moral judgments for themselves and are only behaving themselves because the book tells them not to. If they were to accept any evidence questioning even a part of the book it would draw into question the rest of it and mean that their whole basis for knowing what's right and wrong is questionable. Since - they say - they don't behave in a socially acceptable manner based on their own judgment, and HAVE to reply on the book, it's a HUGE shift to start taking responsibility for your own actions and I applaud you for it.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Alc - thank you for your kind words.

In fact, the circumstance was that I was my mother's sole care-giver as she descended through the four layers of Hell that are the four recognized stages of Alzheimer's Disease. The emotional pain and stress were nearly unbearable.

It was a combination of logic and circumstance that opened my eyes. At that time I was still Methodist and was reading the Bible for comfort, looking for answers. It was the total lack of useful answers that caused me to re-read the Bible with a more critical viewpoint. The more critically I read the passages, the less sense it made, until finally I had the mental shift required to recognize the Bible for what it REALLY was. (It is in the same category as Aesop's Fables and Grimm's Fairy Tales - stories to amuse, amaze, and often to scare children.) Then and only then, I was able find my way out of the morass of lies, deceptions, misdirection, and delusions.

The hardest part of that was the paradigm shift of realizing that the people I had trusted most - my parents - had lied to me. The way out was to realize that the Bible actually DOES have some good advice here and there, including its comments on forgiveness. The non-mystical advice in the Bible isn't so bad. I forgave my parents for unwittingly repeating lies that had been told to them. After that, I was able to regain my mental balance and get over my mother's brutally slow passing.

Your comments about having a complete revision of your ideas was indeed appropriate, but by then I had already earned my PhD and was used to critical analysis. That ability to detach from emotional involvement was crucial to reach the level of understanding that I finally reached.

On the other hand, that comment:

like being a lifelong fan of a sports team

I'm in New Orleans... we've got the Saints. 'nuff said.

 

[Alc]

And yet, if you were less of a thinker and more of a follower you could have found something in the bible to justify what was happening and your faith would have become even stronger.

 

[Bladerunner]

Thanks Doc for sharing with us! Like you, each of us has a story to tell. It is what makes us what and who we are.

However, I cannot see what you see about my faith in Jesus Christ!(religion)

Years ago, a small child of 6-7 was saved in my grandparents Church. I kept to the church in those days but as I grew older, I realized that my home church had a lot of hypocrisy in it. We had people that were high up in the church yet they practiced deception on and/or lying to( etc.) the very people they prayed with on Sundays.

I left the church but never left Jesus Christ. I had lost my faith in 'men of faith' and made a vow never to become like them. I never lost my faith in Jesus Christ and this remains until this day. Some time ago, I became interested (out of the Blue) in pursuing the facts of the Bible. Why????? I really do not know, but I am glad I did!

Yes, Doc I looked inside and what I saw I wanted to keep.

Thanks again
Blade

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Blade, as I have said many times, there are things in the Bible that I want to keep - 1st among them being the value of forgiveness. Which is one (but not the only) reason that I have repeatedly said I respect your right to believe as you claim you do.

It is merely that sometimes your attitude seems a bit over-the-top, which, to my view, comes across as a type of "holier-than-thou" arrogance that your view is right and any incompatible views MUST be wrong.

As an atheist, I understand why some people prefer to cling to their religion. Once, I took my oldest grandson to an air show (when he was maybe 5 years old.) He loved the planes, got to sit in the pilot's seat of a Coast Guard helicopter - and grinned bigger than the Cheshire Cat from Wonderland! But they had an air power segment where they sent up an F-16 jet and then did another act.

When that next act was finished, the F-16 came over the airfield from behind the crowd, flying at Mach 0.99, so that it didn't QUITE outrun its own noise. It flew low and DAMN it was loud. All we could hear was the growl of engines pushing that plane through air that loudly protested being pushed out of the way. (Called a shock wave, of course.) Nobody saw it coming, which was the whole point of their demonstration.

When confronted with the horrible noise that filled him with terror, my grandson latched onto my leg and it took me a few minutes to calm him down. Afterwards, he learned that it was just a noisy jet plane, but for a moment, he was a child in terror of the unknown. He clung to me as his point of safety in the aftermath of that chaos.

To me, that provides the best analogy I can imagine of how people cling to religion when facing the big, dark, totally unknown barrier that is death. Yet we go to sleep each night not knowing whether we will wake up. That, we can face - but it is all a matter of degree, not kind.

If you need the comfort of that belief in a waiting father figure, I cannot curse you for it. The parable of the sower and the seeds - which is based on being tolerant of the varied nature of those fields, and by extension, the varied nature of PEOPLE - gives me a reason to simply accept the fact that you are what you are, and will do your best to muddle through life.

If you need religion, fine. I don't. Just don't look at me and believe that I desperately need your news. I've already heard it and if I ever decide I need to return to religion, I know where to find that, too. Just don't hold your breath.

 

[Bladerunner]

Doc as I have stated many times before, everyone has that choice to make. It is a no brainier. You either accept Jesus Christ as your savior preferably before you die OR you do not. There is no in between. To Die only means that; once you die, no decision can be made. If your decision is default, then that is what it will be.

I have never touted other baggage that goes along with that decision. You don't have to join a 'Local' Church nor are you compelled to perform certain duties as many 'Local' churches require. That is strictly a decision you can make. Don't get me wrong, the 'Local' church do a lot of good that would not be there if they were not there.

I have tried to answer any questions concerning the Bible, giving you my opinion along with the opinions of a bunch of Scholars that have done nothing but study the Bible most of their life. Most of their opinions I agree with however, there are some opinions, I still have to research myself in order for me to form an opinion or agree with them.

I am sorry I present an ""holier-than-thou" arrogance" to the thread. I really do not mean to. But I do mean to present the Bible as a Divinely written Book that is so intricately laced together, only the computers of today could accomplish its writing vs those computers of ancient times. I as you are....confident in knowing were we each respectively are going to be once we are laid to rest. Both are completely different and that is OK because to have the freedom of choice(s) is one of God's greatest gifts. As I have stated many times before, 'If I am wrong, we will never know. However, If I am right, the ones who chose badly will know one more time during the final judgement of God. (Note: according to the scriptures,( Isaiah 65: 16-17, Rev.21: 4) the ones in heaven will not remember parts of their lives here on earth. Probably the troubles times or 'sins').

Enough said. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Thanks again

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

I will offer this link as a definition of the 'parable of the Seed and Sower"

http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-study/jesus-life/parable_sower.htm


Enjoy

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

To Steve R. and any others that are interested.

Steve, the following link backs up what I was saying about the OT and NT. I urge to at least watch the 1 session as it has 23 more on the Book of Genesis and our creation.

Blade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtd7se5Un6Y&list=PLYIk4MAUnGh0kCtzHs-bSSwRc-Q1UuXzH

 

[Rabbie]

Blade there is no decision to be made.

If there is a god and he is all-knowing as you postulate then he already knows what each of us will do. So this leads inexorably to the conclusion that free-will is entirely illusionary and we have no control over what decisions we make.

I do not believe this to be the case so I reject the concept of an all-knowing god for this reason

 

[Frothingslosh]

That has always been my argument against the idea of omniscience - the fact that omniscience utterly precludes free will.

On the flip side, if there's no free will, then Justice itself becomes immoral, because then we're punishing people for what they were literally forced to do. Perhaps imprisoning those who are too dangerous to be allowed into society would be fine, but the concept of 'rehabilitation' suddenly becomes a bad joke, 'deterrence' becomes utterly impossible, and sentences other than life without parole become pointless at best and the moral equivalent of kicking a dog for barking at worst.

The God-botherers HATE that argument, by the way. The usual come-back is generally 'you still have a choice, God simply always knows what it will be'. When I point out that that is the same as saying 'the coin has a perfect 50/50 chance of landing on heads, so it will land on heads 100% of the time', all they can argue is 'BUT THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING!!111!one!oneOnE11!!!'.

 

[Mike375]

That has always been my argument against the idea of omniscience - the fact that omniscience utterly precludes free will.

That has also been my issue.

My other question has always been "since God knows whether we are going to Hell or Heaven before we were born then for those of us going to Hell why did he create us?"

Of course if we can change that outcome then God had the wrong answer.

None of that excludes a being or beings that are above us.

However, I do find the "born again" evolutionists have a similar approach in the sense that they can't accept any possible deviation from their "Bible"

 

[Libre]

This sums it up for me pretty well.

From Greek philosopher Epicurius:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?