Are you an atheist? (4 Viewers)

[The_Doc_Man]

We know that the semen of the father will determine the eventual outcome of the unborn child. I don’t see what else you can add to this and why it is not clear especially at a time when the opposite view was prevalent and still is in some countries today!

"That He did create in pairs,-male and female, from a drop (of seed) when it is poured forth; 53:45-46

The link between a man's contribution determining the gender of a child and the claim of that verse to actually STATE that point just is not there, my friend. I'm sorry, but that quoted statement is SO generic that I have to believe you were given information not present in the verse, and are conflating (the equivalent of) Sunday School teachings with what is actually in print.

I thought you didn’t believe in HELL? But the universe at the beginning was ONLY gaseous before the Earth came into existence, that’s the point.

Then He turned to the heavens when it was smoke (dukhan) and said to it, and the earth; “Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly.” They said, “We come willingly.”
41:10-11

Actually, "Hell" makes a good epithet that everyone understands and is both shorter and less personal than calling someone an unkind name - but we digress.

We have be careful because I sensed a divergence in creation references here. Judaic and Christian teachings offer a dichotomy between the creation of the universe and the creation of Earth. The fact of a universe filled with chaos, or gas in chaotic motion, appears in various old descriptions. To see one of those descriptions in the Qur'an is no biggie. Islam could have gotten that from ANY of its neighbors - Chaldeans, Phoenicians, Egyptians, quite a few more. Remember my previous point that ALL versions of creation mythos were oral until someone learned to write, so there is NO WAY to tell which came first, and I do NOT mean "chicken" or (cosmic) "egg."

But to get the particle splitting, an early gaseous universe, that the universe is expanding, etc. etc. and getting them all right 14 centuries ago to me is worth more than a shout. I’m yelling at the top of my voice right now.

I heard you but addressed that point. Was I whispering at the time? Sheesh!

I lay credence to the Qur’an because it comes from God and for no other reason.

And you DO understand that THIS STATEMENT you just made is one of the pivot points of the discussion. If the Qur'an comes from God, then it is indeed worthy of note. Except that to say that it comes from God, you must first show that there IS a God or an Allah or a Jehovah or (take your pick). But in that proof, the MOMENT you refer to ANYTHING in the Qur'an to prove Allah's existence, you entered into a circular argument, and that is the logical fallacy.

Better to spend the life in the hereafter in a good place with our family members of faith for eternity than in a bad place for eternity.

A-HA! Pascal's Wager rears its ugly head. This has been discussed ad nauseam so I'll merely point out that there is NO GUARANTEED SOLUTION to the dilemma posed by this wager. The refutation has occurred elsewhere and despite appearances, I don't ALWAYS beat dead horses.

Consider this a handshake, Aziz.

Salaam Aliechem (probably spelled wrong but I'm transliterating one of the few phrases I know.)

 

[aziz rasul]

Not much chance on that unless President Trump lifts his ban on Muslims..

Much better to be banned from going to the US of which I have no interest in going to, than be banned from Heaven.

Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do so, and the men who remember Allaah often and the women who do so - for them Allaah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward. 33:35

Depends on if Aziz's nationality is a nation that has spawned people who have launched terrorist attacks against the US or not.

If terrorists from his nation have attacked the US before, he's fine. Same if the Cheeto in Chief has business interests in his nation.

My answer was in answer to your comments above and hence were not random. However it’s always good to quote the Qur’an anyways. Here’s another ‘random’ verse for you to reflect on.

When it is said to him, "Fear Allaah., He is led by arrogance to (more) crime. Enough for him is Hell;-An evil bed indeed (To lie on)! 2:206

 

[aziz rasul]

Father determines gender of child.

53:46
Sahih International: And that He creates the two mates - the male and female -
Pickthall: And that He createth the two spouses, the male and the female,
Yusuf Ali: That He did create in pairs,- male and female,
Shakir: And that He created pairs, the male and the female
Muhammad Sarwar: It is He who has created spouses, male and female,
Mohsin Khan: And that He (Allah) creates the pairs, male and female,
Arberry: and that He Himself created the two kinds, male and female,

53:47
Sahih International: From a sperm-drop when it is emitted
Pickthall: From a drop (of seed) when it is poured forth;
Yusuf Ali: From a seed when lodged (in its place);
Shakir: From the small seed when it is adapted
Muhammad Sarwar: from a discharged living germ
Mohsin Khan: From Nutfah (drops of semen male and female discharges) when it is emitted;
Arberry: of a sperm-drop, when it was cast forth,

The existence of other Earth like planets.

Sahih International: It is Allaah who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them. [His] command descends among them so you may know that Allaah is over all things competent and that Allaah has encompassed all things in knowledge.
Pickthall: Allaah it is who hath created seven heavens, and of the earth the like thereof. The commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allaah is Able to do all things, and that Allaah surroundeth all things in knowledge.
Yusuf Ali: Allaah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allaah has power over all things, and that Allaah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.
Shakir: Allaah is He Who created seven heavens, and of the earth the like of them; the decree continues to descend among them, that you may know that Allaah has power over all things and that Allaah indeed encompasses all things in (His) knowledge.
Muhammad Sarwar: It is God who has created the seven heavens and a like number of earths. His commandments are sent between them, so that you would know that God has power over all things and that His knowledge encompasses all.
Mohsin Khan: It is Allaah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven). His Command descends between them (heavens and earth), that you may know that Allaah has power over all things, and that Allaah surrounds (comprehends) all things in (His) Knowledge.
Arberry: It is God who created seven heavens, and of earth their like, between them the Command descending, that you may know that God is powerful over everything and that God encompasses everything in knowledge.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Aziz - I must tell you that the sections you posted DO NOT show that the Qur'an says the father determines the gender of the child. It says that the Father (capitalized) determines the gender of the child, and when you do that in all literature I've ever seen, it is tantamount to saying Allah or God determines the gender of the child. I know the science of it, but every religion with which I have ANY familiarity says that the gender of the child is chosen by (whatever name is used for) God. So your statement is not what you claim it to be.

As to knowing of the planets... the name "planet" comes from Greek planetes (wanderer), and the Chaldeans knew of the planets in 3200 B.C. because they wrote about the fixed and movable (wandering) features of the night sky. They used astrology and talked about the planets being in a given constellation as providing signs and portents of horrific events. Heck, it was astrology that led to the decree by King Herod that made Joseph and Mary leave their home and head for Bethlehem.

So to say that a book from about 1400 AD (or is that now CE?) knows about planets? It was common knowledge in other cultures. The "Dark Ages" of Europe led to an exception for that knowledge because of massive outbreaks of disease that made general education a secondary priority for a while. But anyone who had access to older works from Ancient Greece, Chaldea, Sumeria, and Phoenicia (which the Arabian cultures had) could have EASILY know about the planets.

So again, your response is colored by the way you give unusual credence or significance to the writings. I, on the other hand, read them uncolored by prior teachings of how miraculous these statements must be.

I understand your belief and do not wish to impugn it. However, I DO suggest that your belief must be based on more than these words. You earlier said that you started to read the Qur'an when you were older, but if you were brought up in that culture, I suspect a stronger childhood influence than you seem to recognize. When I read the words, because I was not brought up in that culture, they are just words. They hold no unusual significance to me.

- Richard

 

[aziz rasul]

The Qur'anic verses tells us that the semen determines the gender, surely that's whats important. Since the semen is emitted from the male, then we come to the conclusion that the father is responsible for the gender and not the mother.

With regards to planets, the emphasis is on the existence of other Earth like planets. Of course planets were known about 14 centuries ago, but that was not the point I was making.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The Qur'anic verses tells us that the semen determines the gender, surely that's whats important.

Aziz, that is an extraordinary reading of what you posted, not an ordinary reading. To me the passage says that Allah makes that determination. OK, I'm not a believer, but in that context, I would merely read that passage as saying "Allah chooses" and makes it happen as He chooses.

The other reference to planets is again an extraordinary reading. If it is a reference to seven planets (as I read it), that is about right for the level of astronomy known at the time of the writing of the Qur'an - but the seven planets ("seven heavens and a like number of"...) are NOT earth-like. We know that. So it was at best a point of CONJECTURE that the other planets were like the Earth. But of the seven known planets, three (that were known at that time) don't even have solid cores so are not at all like the Earth. They are more like frozen layers of Hell.

If you want to show us an extraordinary statement, show us where the Qur'an talks about frozen planets and hot planets. THEN you would have grounds for stating that the Qur'an displays knowledge not possible to know in that time frame. Otherwise, what you offer is merely a set of (specifically incorrect) conjectures about the seven planets known in that period.

And if we are talking about seven heavens, Dante had nine Hells to consider. HE got the number of planets right (more or less, at least until the IAU downgraded Pluto). You are reading poetry loosely based on astronomy as it was known in that primitive time.

No disrespect, Aziz, but you are carrying mental baggage into the reading. That's OK, I do it too, sometimes, and forgive you for it. I just hope that one day you can sort it all out and tell which is the legitimate baggage and which is the extraordinary baggage.

 

[Mike375]

The Qur'anic verses tells us that the semen determines the gender, surely that's whats important.

Like the "born again Christians" use the Bible to prove things you are doing the same. Of course the problem with this is the assumption either book is correct.

Back to the topic heading......Are you an atheist?....I think everyone falls into one of two areas. First is agnostic. Second is faith, which covers the atheist....that is having a 100% definite position without proof.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Mike: Watch out for use of "Agnostic." It is multi-valued.

You can distinguish between agnostics of the "I don't know" variety as opposed to the "God exists but none of the organized religions have it right" variety. Both are legitimately called "agnostic." The former case is, I believe, what you meant to use. Whether that second case is or is not among the faithful depends on exactly WHICH faithful followers you ask, since some believers require you to belong to a specific church and others just require you to believe in God.

As to your dichotomy... Again, you are trying to cast atheism as a faith, but it is not. We who are truly atheist simply note that in the absence of proof that God exists, the default position is to assume He does not.

We are probably closer to agnostic (first category) because if proof ever WERE offered and validated, we probably WOULD at least look at the problem differently. However, as it stands, no such proof has ever been offered in a reliable and testable way. Further, at least for Christianity, the "only through faith" doctrine means that real proof CANNOT be offered. Therein lies the heart of this dispute.

 

[Mike375]

Doc,

Are you 100% sure that God (or gods) does not exist?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I am 100% sure that no valid evidence has been presented in favor of God's existence, and that Man has had millennia to find such proof but has failed to produce it.

I believe 100% in long-term trends. I also believe in evidence. Right now all I see is the long-term trends of "no viable evidence." Thus, based on historical and current offerings, I am 100% certain that what I see does not lead to God.

I am ALSO 100% certain that what I have read in the Bible can be taken in many ways, but the SIMPLEST way is that it contains stories about people who BELIEVED in God. But there is no proof that they were right. So again ... no proof.

In the absence of proof, the only logical conclusion remaining is that for the moment, God must not exist.

 

[Mike375]

Do you need proof to be 100% sure........of anything?

 

[Mike375]

By the way Doc, your atheism appears to (in general) appear to relate to God.

Does your atheism extend to any other form of gods or supernaturals?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

To me, all "sky daddies" of any religion fall into the same category. Ditto, Satan (which is a construct as the antagonist of the God mythos). If you looked at my exchanges with Aziz, you know that I am ecumenical. I do not believe in ANY deities.

As a former Protestant, I read the Bible quite a bit. I find it significant that if you read the relevant sections in Ecclesiastes and Psalms about death, you see ideas like "the dead have no consort with the living." "The grave is silent." "All thoughts cease." The O.T. got it right. It was that newcomer Yeshua bar Yosef that confused the issue with all that eternal life stuff.

"Supernatural" is a key word here. To me there is only "natural" - which then subdivides into "currently explainable by ..." and "currently not explainable fully" and "currently not explainable at all." In other words, explanations for underlying principles can be anywhere on the continuum from fully explained to totally unknown without EVER resorting to supernatural explanations.

Saying "unknown" does NOT warrant an escape to the supernatural. Unknown means exactly that ... not known. Tossing in a supernatural flair is an attempt to evade the hard and cold fact that we are not that special in the grander scheme of things.

Do I need proof to be 100% sure of anything? No, trends work just fine yet don't represent absolute proof. I know that trends can be "iffy" if carelessly applied. (In fact, part of my dissertation research included a discussion of trends and how to decide when to ignore them because they were comprised of crap data.)

The question is, do I need proof to become a skeptic of the "don't know for sure" variety? Yes, at least a little proof that something is amiss. But even there, I will not automatically say that "unknown" means "supernatural."

Part of my viewpoint comes from consideration of the Zen approach that says "Why ask why?" Asking why something happens works when exploring scientific principles. But asking why evil people seem to get away with what they do? That answer is so much easier than anyone thinks... It happens because we let it happen. Sometimes, asking "Why" is the wrong question. The right first question is usually, "OK, so here is this thing. So... what do we do about it.?" Sometimes, asking "Why" is inherently unknowable in that it presumes that there WAS a cause for the event in question for which you seek explanation. But the universe doesn't do strict cause-and-effect stuff all the time. It is a quantum probabilities issue as to why stuff happens.

I've started to ramble, but I think I've addressed my position fairly clearly.

 

[Vassago]

What we "know" is always in flux when it comes to science. That is the wonderful thing about science. Everything can be change to interpreted to fit the narrative and as new evidence is presented. I think that's the point. The conclusion that no God exists is come to by considering what we "know" today, rather than what we might "know" tomorrow. Asking someone if they would believe in God if he presented himself tomorrow is a moot point, because what you "know" will change.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

True that, Vassago. Our world view as scientists is that we believe what can be proved. If you can prove God's existence in a way that doesn't involve loose foundations, then you will convert us. Until then, no proof = no God.

 

[aziz rasul]

Aziz, that is an extraordinary reading of what you posted, not an ordinary reading. To me the passage says that Allah makes that determination. OK, I'm not a believer, but in that context, I would merely read that passage as saying "Allah chooses" and makes it happen as He chooses.

Surely if you are a believer in the existence of God or not, the passage is still there to say that the semen determines gender outcome, which is medically the case. Isn’t that what should be concentrated on?

The other reference to planets is again an extraordinary reading. If it is a reference to seven planets (as I read it), that is about right for the level of astronomy known at the time of the writing of the Qur'an - but the seven planets ("seven heavens and a like number of"...) are NOT earth-like. We know that. So it was at best a point of CONJECTURE that the other planets were like the Earth. But of the seven known planets, three (that were known at that time) don't even have solid cores so are not at all like the Earth. They are more like frozen layers of Hell.

I was talking about other EARTH like planets, if you read the verse carefully. Also the number 7 is metaphorical for many. You cut the verse of just at the right place where the meaning changes i.e. you quoted

…"seven heavens and a like number of"...) are NOT earth-like.

But the verse was

… seven heavens and a like number of earths.

If you want to show us an extraordinary statement, show us where the Qur'an talks about frozen planets and hot planets. THEN you would have grounds for stating that the Qur'an displays knowledge not possible to know in that time frame.

This does not answer your question, but you might find it useful to see a YouTube video entitled “o Allah Give me a sign”. Also if there were such Qur’anic verses, would you not simply well we have very hot and frozen parts of the planet that we call Earth and that that can’t be proof! There are enough Signs, so asking for more doesn’t make any sense to me. For me 21:30 was the first Qur’anic verse that I was impressed with and that was more than enough.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

the passage is still there to say that the semen determines gender outcome

Sorry but it does NOT read that way to me. You are imposing a biased overlay on top of the way you read that. I have reviewed the passage more than once because I am trying to be a responsible debater, but I still see it as saying that God (or Allah) makes the choice. I can switch viewpoints long enough to say that in that context, I could have once agreed with that statement (that God chooses). But I simply cannot read the statement the way you do.

the number 7 is metaphorical for many.

Using a specific number 7 as a metaphor for "many" speaks ill of the prophet's opinion of the math skills of the people intended to read that passage. Particularly when the word "many" existed at the time the Qur'an was written.

seven heavens and a like number of earths.

If you are going metaphorical on us then that is "many heavens and many earths" but again, why not use the word "many" for this purpose? (NOTE please that I actually do not expect an answer for this one as the Qur'an was written long enough ago that the prophet's reasons for word choices are lost in the deeps of time.)

Also if there were such Qur’anic verses, would you not simply well we have very hot and frozen parts of the planet that we call Earth and that that can’t be proof!

Maybe we would still be skeptical, but that would be harder to discredit because it would have required a deeper knowledge of astronomy than was present at the time. The point of all of this is actually the one you are trying to make... If the Qur'an actually contained some knowledge that COULD NOT POSSIBLY have been known to scholars of that time, then you would have a very good argument. The problem so far is that such extraordinary passages have not been revealed.

People of ancient Egypt knew anatomy of men and women from (if nothing else) preparing bodies for burial using Canopic Jars for the organs. The ancient Chaldeans knew of planets, stars, comets, and other astronomical phenomena. Through animal husbandry including the concept of "breeding mares" and stud animals, they would have been easily able to know about semen.

The passages you have shown us simply don't meet the "extraordinary knowledge" standard. To me, the problem is one of confirmation bias that is causing you to read special meaning into ordinary words. PLEASE believe as you wish, but also understand that when you offer proofs, they are subject to our review and interpretation. I speak only for myself for this: You have EVERY RIGHT to believe as you wish, and must not take it as a personal insult if we don't see things in the same way you do. But you must understand that in the absence of functional telepathy, we CANNOT see things through your eyes, and therein lies the basis of this discussion.

 

[aziz rasul]

Using a specific number 7 as a metaphor for "many" speaks ill of the prophet's opinion of the math skills of the people intended to read that passage. Particularly when the word "many" existed at the time the Qur'an was written.

But the Prophet (peace be upon him) didn’t write the Qur’an! How would he know this?
The fact that God says that there are other Earth like planets is what I was trying to emphasize. These have only been discovered over the past 2 decades or so.

The ancient Chaldeans knew of planets, stars, comets, and other astronomical phenomena. Through animal husbandry including the concept of "breeding mares" and stud animals, they would have been easily able to know about semen.

Did they know that other Earth like planets existed, if so can you provide some evidence? Of course people would know about semen, but that isn’t the point I am making. It is the fact that the male semen determines the gender is what I am concentrating on. The fact that God is telling us this is great.

I speak only for myself for this: You have EVERY RIGHT to believe as you wish, and must not take it as a personal insult if we don't see things in the same way you do. But you must understand that in the absence of functional telepathy, we CANNOT see things through your eyes, and therein lies the basis of this discussion.

Of course I don’t take it as a personal insult. We are free agents to think as we like. This is why I quoted Qur’an 109:6 in an earlier post.

When the thought police come along, then people like me are going to have a hard time. As far as I am concerned, I see God in the passages that I have chosen and I also believe in a Day of Judgement. I accept that you don’t. When that day comes, you will have to answer to Him as we all are.

41:52 Say, "Have you considered: if the Qur'an is from Allaah and you disbelieved in it, who would be more astray than one who is in extreme dissension?"
41:53 We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
41:54 Unquestionably, they are in doubt about the meeting with their Lord. Unquestionably He is, of all things, encompassing.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The fact that God says that there are other Earth like planets is what I was trying to emphasize.

Or the folks looking at the "wanderers" thought that there were.

Did they know that other Earth like planets existed, if so can you provide some evidence?

Was it Aristarchus of Samos who is credited with the first heliocentric model? If so, that conjecture was available in at least 300 BCE. He proposed the model that we know today to be more accurate than anything the rest of the western world used until the time of Galileo, Tycho Brahe, and Nicolas Copernicus.

The fact that God is telling us this is great.

Yet that is not how I read the same passage. It says that semen triggers pregnancy but still doesn't say whether the mother or the father does the determination. To me the reading is clear that God/Allah makes the choice.

 

[aziz rasul]

Was it Aristarchus of Samos who is credited with the first heliocentric model?

But did he say that there were other Earth like planets during his lifetime?

Yet that is not how I read the same passage. It says that semen triggers pregnancy but still doesn't say whether the mother or the father does the determination. To me the reading is clear that God/Allah makes the choice.

To me the verses make it clear that a sperm-drop determines the male or female. Of course Allaah ultimately determines the outcome but the point is that the outcome comes from the sperm-drop.

53:45 And that He creates the two mates - the male and female –
53:46 From a sperm-drop when it is emitted

Also interesting to note that the Arabic word for man (ra-jul) and woman (im-ra-ah) both appear 23 times in the Qur'an. Both men and women have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Happy to give the Qur'anic references if you are interested.