Attack on Israel (1 Viewer)

As predicted, Biden is now slowly "withdrawing" US policy support of Israel under the guise of "pausing" (secretly demanding) Israel's annihilation of Hamas to facilitate humanitarian aid to those in Gaza and the return of hostages. (Recall that Biden is following Obama's pro-Iranian and anti-Israel policies.) Biden, as this trend continues, may soon vocally demand an end to all fighting (ceasefire) as a faux humanitarian gesture to end "unnecessary" Palestinian suffering and deaths without any actual resolution concerning Hamas being punished for its barbaric acts. Hamas, in the end, gets a "free pass" to regroup and plan to undertake a future Oct. 7th style attack again. Israel cannot afford a ceasefire and must annihilate Hamas.

What Biden should be publicly demanding is that Hamas surrender. This word is missing from Biden's policy lexicon. The fact that Biden never calls on Hamas to surrender, is indicative that Biden really does not support Israel.
 
I get that Israel's position to destroy Hamas completely is Draconian. But at some point, there is simply no other option. Nothing Israel has done in the 75 years since partitioning has made any difference. They have, on multiple occasions, offered very reasonable terms for the two-state solution. Hell, there WAS two states in 1948 and it was the Arab neighbors who invaded and occupied what was supposed to be Palestine. Why does no one talk about that occupation? The Arabs have broken every cease fire agreement for the past 75 years including but not limited to the one they broke on Oct7.

The problem was that on Oct7, Hamas took the fight to a completely different level. When you send terrorists to invade the homes of civilian families and torture and ra** and kill or capture them, there is no backing down. They made this a fight to the death and that is what Israel is giving them. Israel is making sure that this type of attack will never happen again.

To the Palestine apologists' out there, you have to make this personal to understand the horror of what Hamas did. What if it happened to you? Put yourself in their place. It is the early hours of the morning. The family is just getting up, armed terrorists break into your home. You have no way to fight back. Few Israelis have guns in their homes and even if they did, they would not be useful against the weapons carried by the terrorists. You are sitting down at your kitchen table. Your wife is cooking breakfast and your world ends as a terrorist kills your baby because he was crying. Then in front of you, they ra** your daughter, one at a time until they're all done. They're all pumped up feeling like manly men. Then they start on your wife. You finally welcome the bullet to your brain.

These are not warriors. They are animals, vermin, they need to be destroyed. The Palestinian civilians who die as a result, die for their cause. I have little sympathy left for them. They have destroyed it. They are the ones who voted for Hamas. They are the ones who have refused all rational solutions which would give them freedom and a good life. They are the ones who voted to kill all the Jews. They are the ones who tolerate Hamas hiding behind the skirts of women and hospital beds and baby carriages. Their "leaders" are living in luxury in Qatar or in villas in Europe. They are all safe from the action and consider the Palestinian citizens as cannon fodder. They are there simply for click bait since their deaths make the Israelis look bad. Just because the optics are bad is no reason for Israel to stop pressing to ferret out these vermin.
 
Steve R. said:
What Biden should be publicly demanding is that Hamas surrender. This word is missing from Biden's policy lexicon. The fact that Biden never calls on Hamas to surrender, is indicative that Biden really does not support Israel.
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And what alienate what base he has left? He governs by wetting a finger to see which way the wind blows, he has a long history of being wishy-washy.
 
The article below contains a couple of headline. The first, that the US blocked a UN resolution calling for immediate cease-fire in Gaza. The second that Netanyahu says Hamas terrorists are surrendering to Israeli forces.
www.foxnews.com

US blocks UN resolution calling for immediate cease-fire in Gaza

The United States blocked a United Nations resolution that called for an immediate humanitarian cease-fire in Gaza, as heavy fighting continues between Israel and Hamas terrorists in the Palestinian territory. More than 1,200 people have died on the Israeli side since the Oct. 7 terror attacks...
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
On the first headline, I'm somewhat surprised that the Biden administration did not support it. The Biden administrator has been pushing for "restraint" by Israel, providing humanitarian assistance to those in Gaza, and providing (foreign aid) $$$$ to the Palestinians, which enables Hamas to continue fighting. Additionally, the Obama administration failed to support Israel in 2016. The Biden administration is a continuation of the Obama administration.
Choosing not to veto, Obama lets anti-settlement resolution pass at UN Security Council
In dramatic departure from eight years of policy, US abstains, enabling 14-0 vote; Israel accuses Obama, Kerry of abandoning it; Palestinians hail ‘day of victory’
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The second headline observes that some Hamas terrorists are surrendering. Good news, but there is a major shortcoming. The Biden administration is not demanding that Hamas surrender. The Biden administration should be insisting that humanitarian aid to Gaza can be provided when Hamas surrenders. Unbelievably, the Biden administration is giving humanitarian aid now which keeps the conflict going and will lead to evermore deaths.

On the subject of civilian deaths; one of the morning talk shows had a segment that Israel was being called out for the civilian deaths that were occurring. Those discussing the issue never mentioned that Hamas started the conflict and have no trouble killing civilians (both Israeli and Palestinians). The killing of civilians can be ended by Hamas surrendering. Israel is not to blame. This was an example of blatant media bias against Israel.
 
Pat Hartman said:
How far should Israel go to retaliate? I say turn Gaza to glass as well as all the nuclear reactors in Iran that they have targeting info for. How many times does this have to happen? If there is intel that the 85 BILLIONS of dollars worth of US weapons that Biden so kindly GAVE to the Taliban are actually being used as is being widely reported, then destroy Bagram airbase too.
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Now the the Israelis have been given the excuse to invade Gaza, and the West Bank, they won't stop until they remove Hamas and destroy the infrastructure. They been waiting a long time for this opportunity and they're not going to let it slip by.
As long as the Middle East is squabbling amongst themselves, the west is a safer place.
 
Dave E said:
As long as the Middle East is squabbling amongst themselves, the west is a safer place.
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Not necessarily. There has been a Muslim (refugee) invasion into western Europe. Even into the US. They are bringing their culture with them.
www.theguardian.com

Attacks across Europe put Islamist extremism back in spotlight

Even before the war in Gaza, authorities have been warning of rise in Islamist terrorism on the continent
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Just as a historical footnote. Ottoman empire attacked Vienna in 1683, Europe is not necessarily "safe".
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Since posting, ran across this image on Twitter.
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I had a long talk today with a Muslim friend who is now a USA citizen and retired professor of Engineering. At least a large part of (though I'm sure it is not the entire reason for) the animosity of the Palestinian people is the Israeli habit of expropriation of privately owned land to displace Palestinians from their family land so that Israelis can settle there. There are other reasons for animosity, but that is actually a pretty good one. I know that if someone expropriated my residence I would be there with gun in hand. The Palestinians have at least some moral justification for not wanting to give in to people they consider to be government-sponsored squatters on their ancestral estates.

His views are more extreme than mine because he can't accept Oct. 7th as the justification for the Jewish response. I, being atheist, can more easily see the Israeli side of the desire to put an end to the assault of Hamas on innocent people. I guess to a large degree the intensity of feelings depends on whose ox has been gored.
 
A few years ago three of my neighbors about two blocks away had their property expropriated by the use of eminent domain so the city could add an S curve to a road that people drove too fast on when it was all straight. There is always more than one side to this story.

Trump and Israel have the same problem. When they do something that would be considered perfectly normal by anyone else but is in any way negative, the world goes bats**t crazy with the name calling. Israel is administering the West Bank and have been since 1967. They have tried to give the Palestinians self governance but the Palestinians have failed in all this time to form a coherent government so what they have are a bunch of separate settlements populated by Palestinians and "governed" by separate factions of the PLA and we have the Jewish settlements governed by Israel. Since Israel is in charge, the Palestinians need permission to start a new settlement. When they ignore that law and do it anyway, they eventually get displaced.

Dave E said:
Now the the Israelis have been given the excuse to invade Gaza, and the West Bank, they won't stop until they remove Hamas and destroy the infrastructure. They been waiting a long time for this opportunity and they're not going to let it slip by.
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When your neighbor lobs bombs into your civilian neighborhoods, never targeting military installations, on a daily basis, year after year, violating every peace treaty they have ever signed, refusing any rational two state settlement, what is Israel to do???????????? What would you do if your neighbor threw garbage in your yard and rocks at your windows and threatened your children every time they went out to play in their own yard? As far as your neighbor is concerned, you don't belong in your house and in fact, you should just die and that would be best.
Dave E said:
As long as the Middle East is squabbling amongst themselves, the west is a safer place.
Click to expand...
That's where you're wrong. Our border is open to any and all courtesy of the Biden administration. We have "welcomed" nearly 9 million illegal aliens into this country in the three years sind Biden decided to VIOLATE our existing immigration laws and just let in anyone who could manage to walk across the Rio Grande or even the northern border. How many are you hosting in your home?

None of these illegal immigrants have been vetted. The border patrol have identified many on the terrorist list but obviously since they are not checking, we have no idea who is getting through. You'd think that somewhere between the heart of Africa and the southern border of Texas there would have been some "safe" country in which a military age man could have found refuge. I wonder why these men are not going to China or Russia or Haiti or anywhere in South America. How about Saudi Arabia or Iran or Iraq? They're closer. Why do all these black and brown people of the world want to come to the United States of America, the most racist country in the world to hear the Democrat's opinion.
 
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Pat Hartman said:
There is always more than one side to this story.
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Expropriation for a road is a lot more like the original intent of eminent domain than taking a house away from one private citizen and giving it to another private citizen. That actually CAN happen in the USA, since there have been cases of expropriation for the sole purpose of building a privately owned apartment building on land that used to be single-family dwellings.

To my way of thinking, that is a horrible use of eminent domain because it becomes a matter of deciding to kick out single-use homeowners in favor of renters on property that now has a higher tax basis. Call me old-fashioned, but this is pure government greed plus governmental lack of guts to tell voters that the municipality can't afford to pay for something and they won't charge them the amount of taxes needed to pay for whatever the latest clamor was.

(This is my "libertarian" side kicking in.)
 
There was a pretty famous case here in Connecticut 20+ years ago. Went all the way to the supreme court but the people lost. They were evicted from their homes (New London) but the development never took place because the company the city confiscated the land for couldn't get financing. Pretty pissy outcome. It is still derelict today and a quaint little waterfront neighborhood is gone.

Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

The point is - I/we don't know why Israel took the property. We don't know that they took it from a Palestinian to give to a Jew and I deem this in particular to be pretty unlikely. It goes along with the - always believe the worst of the evil orange man opinions.
 
Pat Hartman said:
We don't know that they took it from a Palestinian to give to a Jew and I deem this in particular to be pretty unlikely.
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My source says that it happens. He claims he saw it happen during the term of President Kennedy in Algeria, when the French were doing more or less the same thing that England did in 1948 when they ceded that territory to Israel. He was in Algeria and watched Muslims get displaced. My friend has access to Islamic sources I do not, so confirmation will be tricky for Jewish settlements. I also know that, given typical reporting biases and slants, there is a lot of interpretation going on that might or might not distort reality.
 
Near as I can tell, Israel has displaced settlements in the West Bank because:
1. they posed a military threat (whatever that means)
2. they were constructed illegally

I am also pretty sure that Israel has similar laws to ours where the government can't just take your property and give it away. If they take it, they compensate you - which of course you may not agree with either.

Algeria is not Israel.

The partitioning in 1948 tried to assign Arab settlements to the Palestinians and Jewish settlements to Israel. The assignment was of course imperfect. The Arabs who remained in Israel (many left of their own volition and others were expelled because they fought against Israel in 1948) were full citizens and integrated as much as they wanted to be into Israeli society. They serve in the military and in the Kennessit. They live under the same laws. They have the same rights. Whereas, the Jews who ended up in Arab lands were expelled. There were over 800,000 Jews whose families had been living in Arab lands for a thousand years who were expelled during the first part of the 20th century. All their lands were confiscated without compensation. Far more than the Arabs who left voluntarily or were expelled from Israel in 1948. Prior to the expulsion at least 40% of Bagdad was Jewish.

The problem is that we talk only about the Palestinian refugees but NEVER about the Jewish refugees. I don't even know how many Christians were expelled at the same time but they were treated just as badly by the Arabs as the Jews were. Ask your friend about that.


A close friend's family was exiled from Iraq in the late 30's. They ended up in China or Japan where he was born in ~ 1946, moved to India, then to Australia where he grew up. Then my friend moved to the US in the 80's. He is married to a woman born in Israel. They have family there and so visit at least every year. One of their daughters lived there for a few years.
 
How "innocent" are people who willingly elected terrorist-affiliated, Hamas-supporting government in 2006 ?

Should they be allowed to continue doing the same thing indefinitely, after this?
 
Here's a strange case for you: I, as an atheist, do not think that religion is the root of all evil. Evil comes in acting without considering the well-being of others as an important concept. Evil comes from blind obedience to some higher power without considering whether the directives of that power will lead to harming others. Evil comes from overriding your conscience and compassion. Evil comes from deciding that YOU (or your beliefs) are right and no one else has anything to say about it, to the point of harming those who believe otherwise. Evil is self-centered, ego-centered insistence that no one else can be right if they disagree with you. Evil is extremism.

I do not believe in the mysticism and magic inherent in many religions. I have no affinity for any deity. Even so, I have seen many religions attempt to instill compassion, charity, forgiveness, and acceptance in others. The problem usually comes about when the leaders of the religion turn towards some level of exclusion. Even if the stories of the Bible are ALL allegories, there are many good lessons to be had there. Since I don't believe in any deity, certain parts of the Bible have no value to me. But other parts are distillations of a culture that knew how to get along with others peacefully.

Religion is not to blame. Religious extremism, however, is distilled and refined horror.
 
The_Doc_Man said:
Here's a strange case for you: I, as an atheist, do not think that religion is the root of all evil. Evil comes in acting without considering the well-being of others as an important concept. Evil comes from blind obedience to some higher power without considering whether the directives of that power will lead to harming others. Evil comes from overriding your conscience and compassion. Evil comes from deciding that YOU (or your beliefs) are right and no one else has anything to say about it, to the point of harming those who believe otherwise. Evil is self-centered, ego-centered insistence that no one else can be right if they disagree with you. Evil is extremism.

I do not believe in the mysticism and magic inherent in many religions. I have no affinity for any deity. Even so, I have seen many religions attempt to instill compassion, charity, forgiveness, and acceptance in others. The problem usually comes about when the leaders of the religion turn towards some level of exclusion. Even if the stories of the Bible are ALL allegories, there are many good lessons to be had there. Since I don't believe in any deity, certain parts of the Bible have no value to me. But other parts are distillations of a culture that knew how to get along with others peacefully.

Religion is not to blame. Religious extremism, however, is distilled and refined horror.
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Glad you posted and good to hear your thoughts on it, Doc.

I had a thought too, earlier, that brought a grin to my face.

"There is a big guy up in the sky whose goodies you will not receive if you do bad things to others" (ya know, George Carlin style, as @KitaYama posted the other day!)
...So people fear this and have a major incentive to be better.

Hmm, I'm thinking even if all Godly beliefs are total BS, it's a pretty great scheme - let's leave it in place! It has helped people be better
 
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