Attack on Israel (1 Viewer)

[Isaac]

problem is - that depends on the interpretation of 'bad things'.

Agreed.
So there have been differences in those regards, but let's say for the sake of argument that I'm talking about religions which, in the present day, generally speaking preach to care about your neighbor and wish for their well being.

 

[Steve R.]

As anticipated, news rumors (reports) are emerging that the Biden administration is subtly withdrawing its supposed unequivocal "rock solid" support of Israel. The ghost of the Obama administration is slowly oozing out of the grave.

Jake Sullivan Tells Israel to End 'Intense' War in Time for Presidential Election

Jake Sullivan told Israel to end the "intense" phase of fighting against Hamas in the next few weeks -- i.e. before the 2024 U.S. election.

www.breitbart.com

Kamala Harris pushes W.H. to be more sympathetic toward Palestinians

Vice President Kamala Harris has been telling colleagues in the administration that she wants the White House to show more concern for the humanita...

www.allsides.com

Biden urges more humanitarian aid for Gaza in a call with Netanyahu.

www.nytimes.com

The sympathy for the Palestinians by the Biden administrations purposely overlooks that Hamas attacked Israel and showed absolutely no humanitarian concerns towards Israelis. Should the Biden administration really want the conflict to end for humanitarian reasons, then Biden should be publicly and vigorously demanding that Hamas surrender. Israel is the victim, not the Palestinians.

 

[Isaac]

somehow i hope they finish their main part of the effort pretty fast, though - can't just let 2 million people starve, no matter how stupid and even partially culpable they were for electing hamas - certainly not all of them fall in that category, plus children

 

[Steve R.]

can't just let 2 million people starve,

War is a dirty business. Israel needs to give them the option starve of surrender. Their choice. The US should not intervene and that means no humanitarian aid to Gaza.

 

[Isaac]

despite my bold assertions about the guiltiness of people who voted for hamas, i still separate the palestinian people as a whole from hamas, who will not surrender no matter what it seems

 

[Pat Hartman]

Then let Egypt save the children. Who saved the children of the Jews when they were being persecuted? The "good" people of Germany, Austria, Hungary, Denmark, France, etc all looked the other way except for a very few brave men and women who stepped up and did the righteous thing. Even America looked the other way. Of course if the Evil NYT had published everything they knew about the concentration camps, the American people would very likely have stepped help too.

Let Egypt or Saudi Arabia do the righteous thing. Show the world that Islam is not steeped in evil.

 

[Steve R.]

i still separate the palestinian people as a whole from hamas, who will not surrender no matter what it seems

Collateral damage (innocent civilians) is an unfortunate consequence of war. Historically, as cruel as this sounds, if you were the victim of collateral damage; tough luck. Also why the selective concerns by the world for Palestinians in Gaza?

The hard truth is that the concern for the Palestinians is not that the world cares about them, but the fact they are in conflict with the Jewish state of Israel. The concern for the Palestinians is actually a form of anti-antisemitism. Innocent civilians are being killed in the Arab countries, where it seems no one cares. See the sample article below.

Putin was indicted by the ICC … so why not the butcher of Damascus? | Simon Tisdall

The return to the Arab fold of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad is deeply shameful, and that shame should be shared by the US and its allies

www.theguardian.com

More than 300,000 Syrian civilians died. Any attempt to rehabilitate Assad is utterly shameful

Moreover, the Palestinians could overthrow Hamas. The fact that they are apparently not taking that action means that they do not deserve to be helped.

 

[Pat Hartman]

Moreover, the Palestinians could overthrow Hamas

It is not possible to help people who won't help themselves. Why do you think our government's foolish attempts to spread "democracy" throughout the world have failed so miserably?

Once the Hamas problem is resolved, perhaps Israel should make Egypt a "gift" of Gaza.

 

[Isaac]

No, I'm afraid I'll have to digress in my opinion on this. The Israeli's absolutely have SOME responsibility to try to abstain from going after Hamas in a way that's overly lethal to 2 million bystanders. I'm sorry, but it's a way exaggeration in my book to simply say let them be whatever happens. We have no idea if the Palestinians have the capability to simply overthrow them and force a surrender, wow I digress quite a bit on this topic.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I don't know whether or not you are a Star Trek fan. Many episodes in the original series were morality plays. I refer you to the episode where the Enterprise materialized in the space of a solar system where two of the planets were at war and had been for a very long time. The local authority informed the Enterprise that the ship had been destroyed in an attack and the crew should disembark and come down to the planet to be euthanized because they were dead. Kirk objected to this and as the story progresses, we find out that the two parties were hurting badly by the war and so rather than stop the war since they were unwilling to make peace, they decided to stop physical attacks and instead use computers to create proportional strikes so they could reduce the amount of damage that was being done to infrastructure. So if the computer said your city or you ship was destroyed, the unfortunate people affected were directed to report to the euthanization site and die peacefully. Skipping to the end, Kirk being Kirk, destroyed their war computer so that if they wanted to continue pursuing the war, they had to do it with actual people and materiel.

War is hell. You can't make it better. You can't soften it. You can't retaliate proportionately. The only way to wage a war is to fight to win and therefore you need to get it done as quickly as possible. The world should be leaning on Hamas to concede rather than on Israel to stop. Israel is not the bad guy here. If Hamas survives, they will continue their attacks on Israeli civilians.

This "war" has been going on for far too long. It is time to end it and Israel needs to win to have any shot at safety in their beds.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

War is hell. You can't make it better. You can't soften it. You can't retaliate proportionately. The only way to wage a war is to fight to win and therefore you need to get it done as quickly as possible.

I am reminded of the "police action" in Vietnam that could have initially been won, except that the politicians directed the action and the whole mess bogged down to a guerilla war of attrition and we got tired of it. THEN by contrast, there was the work of Gen. Normal Schwarzkopf in Operation Desert Storm that ended the fighting in 4 days. The politicians need to keep their stinkin' mitts out of the kitchen.

On further reflection, I remember some of the tactics used in WW II that didn't work either. The fire bombing of Dresden was supposed to weaken the resolve of the people, but the people weren't running the German side of the war. The two A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't work because to us, that was two nuclear devices but to Japan those were the 87th and 88th industrial cities to be bombed to the point of incineration. Again, it wasn't the people of Japan who were running the war, it was the "hawkish" war council. Germany surrendered with the (lunatic) Fuhrer killed himself rather than let himself be captured by the Russians. The only reason Japan surrendered was that Russia entered the war after Nagasaki was bombed. At that point, the Japanese War Council was split 3-3 over surrender and Hirohito himself cast the deciding vote - because as unthinkable as surrender was, it was even MORE unthinkable that Russia would get to divide Japan with the US and British forces. (Sort of like degrees of infinity.) The lesson to be learned is that we haven't figured out how to convince Hamas that it is time to fully surrender. Putting the people through more suffering isn't likely to do it, but like in Greek mythology - if you don't cut all of the heads off of the hydra, it can regenerate. If the IDF cannot achieve that goal, this conflict WILL continue.

 

[Pat Hartman]

The lesson to be learned is that we haven't figured out how to convince Hamas that it is time to fully surrender.

And we never will with our useful idiot college students demonstrating on their side. The problem is that the Palestinians WANT Hamas to kill all the Jews and they are OK with being poor and living in a dump because for some reason they think Hamas can win and they can move into Israel and take whatever property they like and live there.

The talking heads keep talking about cancelling federal grants to colleges with anti-Semitism problems. I say cancel the funding because they are teaching a political agenda rather than actual history or the useful idiots would know that the Jews are not the problem here. And that from the "river to the sea" -- they can't name either body of water -- means to drive the Jews into the sea so that they (the Palestinians) can occupy all of what was formerly the Palestinian mandate. Then we end up right back where we were more than a thousand years ago where the First Crusade was organized because the Arabs prevented Christians from conducting pilgrimages to the holy sites in the area.

The wife of my favorite bridge partner grew up in Dresden. Luckily, they were also wealthy (the bombing and the communists took care of that though) and were able to close up their mansion in Dresden and move to their farm in the country during the war. They watched the bombing from their farm. Gisla was 9 at the time. Turns out their mansion survived but it was occupied by the Russians and they never got it back. Their factories were destroyed. She was finally able to emigrate after the wall came down and she and her sister ended up here in the US.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Pat, I have a friend with whom I worked for years. In fact, I taught him the Command/Operations language for the VAX/VMS machine we had out at work. He was a child of 6 or 7 in Dresden and survived the bombing with a slight hearing loss but nothing else. His family emigrated to the USA at their first chance and he lived here since about 1950, I believe. His family lost their home but they made it out alive. Makes you think twice about how THIS generation of war refugees will survive.

 

[Pat Hartman]

It is very bad for us to interfere in the affairs of other countries. We are spending billions and not helping the Ukrainians and it is largely our fault that the war is going on because Biden insisted on poking the bear and finally the bear said - HALAS!! (that's Arabic for stop it!)

But, even worse is our interference in Israel where we are funding BOTH sides. How stupid do you have to be to fund BOTH sides???

THIS generation of war refugees will survive.

If you are talking about the Palestinians, you might want to ask why none of the neighboring countries have assimilated any of the millions of refugees living in the 58 refugee camps. Why did the UN DELIBERATELY prevent these refugees from reaching peace by integrating into their host countries? This "war" will NEVER end until the politics of it stop. The war goes on because the Arab countries surrounding Israel WANT it to go on. The Palestinians are just pawns. I really feel for them but beating up on Israel isn't going to fix it. Israel is not the bad actor in this horrid melodrama.

Don't even think about pushing to have the Palestinians come here. That is a non-starter. They don't speak the language, they don't understand our culture and they don't want to. We have "honor killings" right here in the US because we let them not assimilate. Their religion is diametrically opposed to the American way. We already have Sharia courts in the US. That is horrible. We allow Muslim men to have multiple wives. Not the Mormons though. It is offensive if a Mormon wants multiple wives but somehow it Is OK for Muslims. This kind of fracturing of our law has got to stop.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Actually, Pat, I'm going to call you down on this (very slightly and very gently.) My comment wasn't about Palestinian refugees. It was about ALL people whose lives have been upended by the conflict. That includes the people in Gaza AND the people in Israel whose homes were targeted by rocket attacks. They are refugees too. The memories of this conflict will reverberate through subsequent generations and I see no end of it. The IDF might actually eliminate Hamas. But one generation from now, polarized and traumatized children on both sides will grow up with hatred for "the other side" that destroyed their homes and killed their grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, and parents. That memory of hate is unending. I know why the Israelis want to eliminate Hamas. But they can't eliminate memory. This is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. In point of fact, eliminating Hamas will only earn a generation's worth of peace until the next generation of refugees become adults. I might not be around for that next generation, but if my prediction survives in some archive, someone will either laugh at me or cry with me for the generation of kids who have known today's war all too intimately.

I'm no genius. I have no solution. I only know that a short-term win is not going to solve a long-term problem.

 

[Steve R.]

In this thread, plus some others, I have made statements that the West has been ceding to Islamic expansion, instead of defending Western (Judeo/Christian) culture. One of the smaller stories in that trend was the attack on Serbia to "defend" Kosovo by then President Clinton in 1999. Today I ran across the 2008 article below.

Does Balkanization Beckon Anew?

by Patrick J. Buchanan When the Great War comes, said old Bismarck, it will come out of “some damn fool thing in the Balkans.” On June 28, 1914, Gavrilo Princip shot the archduke and he…

buchanan.org

What makes this article particularly intriguing is that Buchanan, for a while (1960s?-1970s?) was a headliner by predicting that Balkanization would ruin the US. For this he was unjustifiably vilified. Today, he has apparently disappeared from the headlines.

It is now approximately sixty years since he has faded from public view, but his Balkanization assertions for the US are increasingly being proven valid. Recently, the mayor of Boston suggested that promoting segregation accomplishes diversity. In terms of this thread, the Biden administration is following Obama's anti-Israeli and pro-Iranian policies. The Biden administration is subtly "suggesting" that Israel restrain itself in retaliating against the barbaric sneak attack by Hamas. And that Palestinians need humanitarian aid. Of special note, the Biden administration (if it really supported Israel) would be demanding that Hamas surrender. It seems that Clinton, Obama, and now puppet Biden have foreign policies (and internal policies) that do not protect Judeo/Christian culture.

 

[Steve R.]

Israel Must Obtain an Unconditional Surrender - The American Spectator | USA News and PoliticsThe American Spectator | USA News and Politics

Let’s construct a game with the following outcomes: win, loss, draw. Team A has only two possible outcomes, either win or draw; Team B also has two outcomes,

spectator.org

Instead of pressuring Israel for yet another ceasefire, the voices from the West should insist that Hamas unconditionally surrender.

I would add that Hezbollah should be disarmed.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I only know that a short-term win is not going to solve a long-term problem.

There is no solution as long as Muslims are taught from childhood that the Jews should all be killed. Let the hatred stop there. Jewish children are not taught to hate anyone let alone Muslims. The learn it as they grow and study history.

 

[Jon]

If the Koran advocates it, it can never be changed. Who has the authority to modify God's words? Instead, a China-Taiwan situation may have to exist, where there is always tension yet the status quo remains for the (hopefully) long-term.

 

[Steve R.]

The Middle East is full of surprises. Will Pakistan now become a player?

Iran hails strikes in Pakistan as it is warned of ‘serious consequences’

Iran claims attack in south-west Balochistan province destroyed two strongholds of Sunni militant group

www.theguardian.com

In terms of this thread, Iran is behind Hamas and Hezbollah. Iran also believes "Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K." Also it seems as first blush, if Iran feels threatened they do lash-out with real force. So far, the US response to Houthi attacks has been essentially meaningless but Kabuki Theater.

The missile strikes were part of Iran’s sweeping reprisals across Syria, Iraqi Kurdistan and Pakistan, designed to exact revenge for a suicide bombing mounted by Isis-K, the Afghan branch of Islamic State, that killed 85 Iranians in the south-eastern city of Kerman on 3 January.

Iran claims that Israeli intelligence has been working with Isis-K, but the geographic breadth of the Iranian response adds to the fears of a further escalation of violence throughout the region sparked by the 7 October attacks by Hamas and Israel’s bombardment in Gaza.