Attack on Israel

[AccessBlaster]

@Edgar_ you do know this conflict is older than 1917, right?

Here is one opinion I found online.

Well, the land in question was first known as the Kingdom of Judea, hence why Jews are called what we are. It was led by King Saul, then King David, and then King Solomon. During the reign of King Solomon's son, the kingdom of Judea split into two kingdoms, one was named Israel.

Eventually, the Roman Empire conquered the Jewish State and after some major revolts against the empire by the Jews. The second revolt occurred in 135 AD. In retaliation for the revolt, they exiled yet more Jews, took many more to Rome as slaves, outright banned us from Jerusalem.

 

[Edgar_]

@Edgar_ you do know this conflict is older than 1917, right?

Here is one opinion I found online.

Oh yes, I also know it's not a local conflict:

Global Conflict Tracker l Council on Foreign Relations

Learn about the world's top hotspots with this interactive Global Conflict Tracker from the Center for Preventive Action at the Council on Foreign Relations.

www.cfr.org

It's an entire region, so, I insist, one sided views about this conflict is, at least, interesting. I have other adjectives for it, but I will suppose people just forgot about the rest of the context.

 

[Pat Hartman]

The maps are interesting but the reduction since 1947 has been a direct result of Muslim wars that the Israelis won. When you are attacked and you win, you don't need to give back the occupied territory. You get to keep it. I'm not sure the map includes the territory that the Israelis took from Lebanon after one of the wars.

Also, as @AccessBlaster has pointed out, this war is more than two thousand years old, not just a little more than 100. This picture is like the climate alarmists. claiming that since the average temperature has been rising for a few years, it is the end of the world as we know it

 

[Edgar_]

As a programmer, I'm skeptic about Israel not knowing about these attacks, considering Pegasus, of which I have a user guide, if anyone is interested. That thing is crazy, and it exists to "predict terrorism" it was made in Israel BTW. Readers of this thread should research about this software further to be able to craft a better opinion of what may have actually happened in this outburst of violence. Or not, it's not mandatory.

As a civil engineer, I know no alarmist claiming temperatures rising, instead, all I have to do is read the recorded results of climate stations to confirm with data what's going on, and yes, temperature is rising, I use those values to design rainwater drainage systems. In fact, there's this project I participated where we delimited the biggest body of water in my country, it was no big deal, we just hammered wooden stakes around the body of water to measure its changes over the years, there are very old pictures of this body of water looking like a sea, that no longer is the case, so we do things like those all the time. I've designed dams taking into account the changes in local regulation to address climate change and how we should use different numbers to predict the amount of water and time it takes to "fill" the dam, as well as its resistence. So, if you don't believe climate change is real, better go check some raw data, instead of reading opinions, because human activity does impact weather, hard.

As a humanist, I'm skeptic about Israel being always a victim just because people hate jews or whatever. Local and regional maps about the conflict results, as well as reading the opinions of both the "attackers" and the "victims", GDP, etc., are all very good data to help anyone understand this is not just about some religious beliefs. Although I know the people in that region take religion VERY seriously. It's just not enough. Besides, how come Khazars have better rights than Palestinians? That's f****d up.

Anyway, I'm out of this conversation.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

As a humanist, I'm skeptic about Israel being always a victim just because people hate jews or whatever.

I'm less skeptical because there is another way to look at it. Since 1948, Israel has chosen to no longer allow themselves to be forced into yet another diaspora. When you stand up to bullies (and radical Muslims ARE bullies), it becomes a continual battle for survival as other bullies decide to enter into the conflict. Israel is a FORMER victim whose anthem has effectively become "We're not going to take it anymore."

If that flies in the face of your world view, I make no apologies for having the opinion or having voiced it.

 

[Steve R.]

Not so fast.

View attachment 110301

I know justice causes outrage for some, but having one-sided views about any geopolitical conflict and, on top of all that, believing everything the ally victim (of some attacks) says is, at least, interesting.

There is a "flaw" in the use of the word "Palestine" and the consequent implications implied by the graphic. When WWI ended and the old Ottoman Empire was carved-up, The British designated the area Palestine for administrative purposes. At that the time the word Palestine simply referred to a geographic area. There was no Palestinian land nor Jewish land. Subsequently, there was Jewish immigration back into their former homeland. At some ambiguous date, unknown to me, there did develop a sense, in the international community, of Jewish land and Palestinian land. Which, unfortunately, puts us where we are today. It should be pointed out that the Jewish people have occupied this land for thousands of years, so a case can be made that the Jewish people are the indigenous culture.

 

[Steve R.]

The brutal attack by Hamas specifically targeting helpless Israeli citizens for death has resulted in some international fall-out that is quite disturbing. Instead of condemning Hamas, groups have actually endorsed the genocide of Jews.

Alan Dershowitz has had two recent podcasts describing this depravity. He designated those supporting Hamas as either Nazis or KKK. Dershowitz laments that universities are actually supporting this depravity. He notes hypothetically that if someone actually tried to form a (traditional) Nazis club at a university, the university would shut-it-down immediately with all the appropriate language that they don't tolerate racism. But simply because these clubs are antisemitic, the universities, with a wink and nod, actually support the genocide behavior of these "clubs".

Click here to get to Alan Dershowitz podcasts. Subsequently, you have to scroll to the individual podcasts. The two podcasts are:

• Students in groups that support ra**, murder and Hamas should be named.
• Why do so many progressives support the ra** and murder of Israeli civilians?

PS: Spending 20+ hours in a car, give you plenty of podcast listening time.

 

[Steve R.]

Will Cain also has a podcast, so click here. Subsequently, you have to scroll to the individual podcast. In this case it is:

• 10 Takeaways From The War In Israel

 

[Steve R.]

A couple of odds and ends, which points to the Biden administration covertly supporting Hamas (in an indirect manner). These actions negate Biden's verbal assurance that he stands behind Israel.

Biden Restored over $700 Million to Jihadist-Linked U.N. Palestinian Agency

President Joe Biden restored funding for the UNRWA, an agency facing accusations of fueling radical Islam and antisemitism in Gaza.

www.breitbart.com

White House Refuses to Freeze Iran's $6 Billion

National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan refused to commit to freezing the $6 billion of Iranian funds that the United States unfroze before Hamas attacked Israel.

www.breitbart.com

The risk of failing to enforce sanctions on Iran

Since the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, America has been loath to carry out military actions in the Middle East. In its place, the State Department and Congress have chosen economic sanctions as a …

thehill.com

Evidently, Biden like Obama, has no problem with interfering in the Israeli political process; yet they claim that Russia has no right to interfere with the US political process.

Biden rebukes Netanyahu, says no invite to the White House in 'near term'

In an open crisis with the Israeli government over the judicial overhaul, President Joe Biden nixes inviting Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu anytime soon to the White House.

www.al-monitor.com

Unfortunately the article below is behind a paywall. Headline reads: "How Biden’s Policy Enriched Iran: Failure to enforce oil sanctions has helped Tehran finance Hamas."

Opinion | How Biden’s Policy Enriched Iran

Failure to enforce oil sanctions has helped Tehran finance Hamas.

www.wsj.com

Since posting, ran across this article. The Biden administration, as the Obama administration did, is surreptitiously supporting Iran and the Palestinians. As the barbaric Hamas attack on Israel demonstrated, this money enabled Hamas to commit atrocities, it was not used for humanitarian purposes. The Palestinians as a result are living in squalor because of Hamas..

Biden admin sent tens of millions in COVID relief funds to group accused of harboring Hamas terrorists

Hundreds of millions of dollars have gone from the U.S. government to an agency accused of helping Hamas including $33.7 million from the American Rescue Plan COVID relief bill.

www.foxnews.com

The Biden administration sent $33.7 million from the American Rescue Plan, a spending bill meant to combat COVID, to a Palestinian relief organization that has previously been accused of providing safe harbor to terrorists in Gaza and has been referred to as "effectively a branch of Hamas."

 

[AccessBlaster]

I miss mean tweets and world peace

 

[Steve R.]

I miss mean tweets and world peace

You reminded my of a couple of points:

• Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem. Prior presidents, while on the campaign trail promised to move the embassy, once elected they forgot that campaign pledge.
• One debate between Trump and Biden, while they were running for president was cancelled. That debate, it was my understanding, would have been about US foreign policy. In that, Trump would have excelled. Why the debate was cancelled, I do not know, but it is a prime candidate for a conspiracy theory since Biden would have been trounced. Was that cancellation part of Biden's "basement strategy"?

 

[Edgar_]

I'm sorry, Steve.

I have already aired my views, peace should be the only thing we all should be talking about, the "Israel is victim" narrative is, by the looks of what I'm reading, obsolete. Lots of people do not see it that way and trying to force the Nazi or KKK comparison is evidence of a one-sided view, you can't form a decently accurate opinion like that.

Besides, in the macro scale of things, in a capitalist world, this is your victim:

And this is your evildoer:

Last time I checked, you can't thrive being a victim.

Peace. Stop supporting stupid wars, guys.

 

[Jon]

Are Palestinians colonisers, given that the Jews were there before the Arabs? Or have I got that wrong?

 

[Steve R.]

I'm sorry, Steve.

I have already aired my views, peace should be the only thing we all should be talking about, the "Israel is victim" narrative is, by the looks of what I'm reading, obsolete. Lots of people do not see it that way and trying to force the Nazi or KKK comparison is evidence of a one-sided view, you can't form a decently accurate opinion like that.

Besides, in the macro scale of things, in a capitalist world, this is your victim:
View attachment 110302
And this is your evildoer:
View attachment 110303
Last time I checked, you can't thrive being a victim.

Peace. Stop supporting stupid wars, guys.

A misleading presentation of "facts". The State of Palestine (to use use graphic) is poor because they are investing in war and they have a culture (that is corrupt) that does not embrace economic growth to benefit its population.

Israel is the victim. They were attacked.

 

[ebs17]

Are Palestinians colonisers

Rather, Jews were never the sole inhabitants of this area. There were also other peoples, for example when the Jews returned from Egypt, and of course with the resettlement of the Jews and the founding of the State of Israel.
These other peoples also have a right to live and remain.

 

[Jon]

These other peoples also have a right to live and remain.

So you agree that the Jews are also allowed to live there, a position Hamas does not accept.

 

[Steve R.]

Rather, Jews were never the sole inhabitants of this area. There were also other peoples, for example when the Jews returned from Egypt, and of course with the resettlement of the Jews and the founding of the State of Israel.
These other peoples also have a right to live and remain.

Do you support the establishment of a Kurdish state?
Seems that the Kurds are oppressed like your claims that the Palestinians are somehow oppressed
Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and Syria are virulently opposed to a Kurdish state. They are violently suppressing the Kurdish desire for independence.
Many in the world are supposedly standing up for the Palestinians, but then seem to be totally silent concerning Kurdish oppression.

The left is hypocritically selective in its faux outrage. They rally behind the Palestinians, but ignore the Kurds. Hamas kills babies and rapes woman, but an Israeli soldier accidentally kills a Palestinian child, the left screams that is a malicious war crime. A few year back, the Washington Post showed a picture of one dead (illegal immigrant) child and the Post had an anti-Trump tirade. Today, many illegal immigrants are dying (including children) trying to enter the US and the Washington Post fails to call-out Biden like they did Trump. This is a a manipulative distortion of reality to achieve certain political objectives. The left, if it is to be credible, needs to show its supposed outrage for all abuses.

 

[ebs17]

Jews have always lived there, even after the expulsions by the ancient Babylonians and later by the Romans. Complete ethnic cleansing only became common later, with the emergence of nations and nation-states.
So you have to differentiate between people and a nation state. In a nation state, one nation is dominant and minorities are often oppressed. This is everywhere.

The will to found a state of Israel arose primarily because Jews were oppressed and persecuted around the world and killed in progroms. The sad climax was certainly the “solution of the Jewish question” in Nazi Germany. But hatred of Jews was and is omnipresent worldwide. There have also been influxes in Israel in recent decades.
In their own state, Jews of course have a different starting position. But of course an Israeli state in the Arab world with autocrats and despots as political leaders is a thorn in the side and a very suitable enemy image to distract from one's own internal problems. Religious fanaticism is then not suitable for dealing with one another in a civilized and peaceful manner.

There is so much pent-up hatred and such divergent interests that no solution whatsoever is in sight.

So you agree that the Jews are also allowed to live there

Now they are there, also for good reasons. Driving them away would also be a crime.

 

[ebs17]

@Steve R.
I can well understand that a people of 40 million want their own state. All the more so since, according to official Turkish policy, there have been no Kurds since the Turkish state was founded, but rather Turks, with the corresponding suppression of the Kurdish language and culture, with massively more difficult access to leadership positions, etc.
A larger group lives in Germany who have their roots and connections in Turkey. Turkish-Kurdish clashes are also taking place on German streets. Of course nobody likes that.

Is a Kurdish state currently realistic: No.
Turkey is an important ally of the USA and Europe. You don't support demands that hurt the Turks. In Iraq, Kurds do have autonomy, but this is also based on the weakness of the Iraqi state. Syria: Similar to Iraq.

What would be good for the world?
Much less religious fanaticism!
Much less extreme nationalism!
Much less religious and political leaders who abuse and turn people against each other for their own personal gains.

Germany and France used to be so-called hereditary enemies. This was reflected very badly in the two world wars. Today, within the framework of the European Union, we have open borders, equal living conditions and rights, and there is no noticeable hatred towards one another.
It is better to work on similarities between people rather than emphasizing differences and treating some as better than others.

 

[Steve R.]

Turkey is an important ally of the USA and Europe.

Turkey is an "ally" in name only. They took advantage of the Arab/Israeli war to invaded Cyprus in 1974. They have yet to withdraw. The US has failed to insist that they withdraw. The Christians in Turkey are increasingly being suppressed. As an insult to Christians, the Hagia Sophia (formerly a Christian church) was recently turned into a mosque. Yet the western nations cower to the Islamists, should a mosque in Jerusalem be somehow perceived as "threatened". Turkey's Erdogan calls Israeli response to Hamas in Gaza a 'massacre'. Erogan is moving Turkey into becoming an Islamist state, if it isn't one already. Turkey is not a friend of the US.

Is a Kurdish state currently realistic: No.

Given the genocidal warmongering of the Palestinians, a Palestinian state in not realistic.