Currency re-vamp

[bwrobel]

Or, as I originally asked, do you believe that every single person who currently owns a gun would continue to do so if they were made illegal?

I hope I never see that law.

just remember guns don't kill, it's those damm bullets. Make bullets illegal

 

[Matt Greatorex]

The original assertion is this:

Which is not the same thing. Quantity of source is not the same thing as ease of access to the source. The thrust of the argument is that accessability to a gun for one that wishes to get hold of one will not be altered by stricter gun controls.

I think this is a reasonable argument considering the current ease of access to illegal drugs in the US.

Firstly, are you genuinely arguing that it is just as easy to get hold of something which is illegal to own as it is to obtain something that you can openly walk into a shop and buy? Yes, there are plenty of illegal drugs in the country, but do you personally believe that not one single person out of the US population has opted not to take drugs because of their illegality? I find that hard to believe, but if you have stats to back it up, I'll bow to your better knowledge.

Secondly, assuming for one moment that every single current gun owner would choose to break the law - thereby ensuring that the number of guns demanded remains constant - do they all know where to buy an illegal gun? I know it can be done and I know it's not as difficult as people might like, but are you saying that everyone knows how to do it? If they don't then the need for guns would have to drop (supply and demand, it's a business like any other), so there would be less point in criminals supplying the same numbers.

Finally, the thrust of the argument, as you put it isn't the point here. What i was arguing with was the statement that stricter gun controls would not reduce the number of guns. I fail to see how it could do otherwise?

 

[dan-cat]

Firstly, are you genuinely arguing that it is just as easy to get hold of something which is illegal to own as it is to obtain something that you can openly walk into a shop and buy?

This depends on the demand of that something. If there is a high demand for that something (which there is for both drugs and guns) then steps will be taken for that demand to be met. Regardless of the legality of that supply.
If you are intent on having a gun then steps will be provided for you to get one. As long as there is some money in it for the trader.

Yes, there are plenty of illegal drugs in the country, but do you personally believe that not one single person out of the US population has opted not to take drugs because of their illegality? I find that hard to believe, but if you have stats to back it up, I'll bow to your better knowledge.

Exactly my point. Illegality does not affect consumption by those who don't care for the law. Demand for guns will remain high regardless of stricter gun control thus illegal steps will be taken to supply that demand. Thus accessability for those who wish to consume will remain unaffected. You've actually supported my argument here.

Secondly, assuming for one moment that every single current gun owner would choose to break the law - thereby ensuring that the number of guns demanded remains constant - do they all know where to buy an illegal gun? I know it can be done and I know it's not as difficult as people might like, but are you saying that everyone knows how to do it? If they don't then the need for guns would have to drop (supply and demand, it's a business like any other), so there would be less point in criminals supplying the same numbers.

The demand has to be great enough for a profit to exist. This doesn't necessarily mean that 'every single current gun owner' has to seek out the supply. Just enough to make a profit. There is a big illegal gun market in the US right now. The demand already exists without new gun laws!

Supply is about appeasing the demand. The illegal traders are intelligent enough to 'educate' those in demand to where the supply is.

Finally, the thrust of the argument, as you put it isn't the point here. What i was arguing with was the statement that stricter gun controls would not reduce the number of guns. I fail to see how it could do otherwise?

You were arguing a different point that had nothing to do with the original assertion. Of course there would be a natural wastage if guns were outlawed. Some would simply not bother to go the illegal route. However the ones who would be prepared to take this route would be catered for and dare I say it these are the people who we need to legislate for.

 

[selenau837]

Wow, one topic gone ary. I guess I shouldn't expect other wise.

As for what money should say, I really don't care. I kinda like the 'In God we Trust'.

Col, I know your beliefs and I can understand why you feel the way you do. You were very tramatized, and it has followed you through out your adulthood. Given the chance, I would love to sit with you and explain my side of and how I know that God exists, and perhaps you will change or mind. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it would be nice to debate it with you, in a non-public forum for others to pic apart apart.

Gun...Hmmmm, I've had my rounds with the britsh bloaks here about that. I believe that people should have the rights to carry guns. That is if they have the proper certification and training. No, I do not believe that every moron should be allowed to carry a gun. I feel there should be a set of test, and background checks inorder to carry one. I've heard a great line...'An Armed society is a polite society'. I have no clue who said it, but I liked it.

But, if I really had my way, everyone would carry swords. That to me is a more honorable way of protecting one self. Plus they are far more attractive to the eye.

That is my piece for today, and I will leave you all with this.
I'm still watching you!!!!!

 

[Rich]

But, if I really had my way, everyone would carry swords. That to me is a more honorable way of protecting one self. Plus they are far more attractive to the eye.

So we can conclude that the US is such a lawless place everybody needs to carry a weapon to defend themselves?

 

[selenau837]

So we can conclude that the US is such a lawless place everybody needs to carry a weapon to defend themselves?

We've been down this road before Richy boy! No, it is not a lawless place, and no need to try and twist my words into making it sound like that.

Come on now Rich!!

 

[Rich]

We've been down this road before Richy boy! No, it is not a lawless place, and no need to try and twist my words into making it sound like that.

Come on now Rich!!

Well you see the arguments being put foward for gun ownership are somewhat fatuous to say the least.
Why is the first reason you all need guns "we need to protect ourselves"?

 

[selenau837]

Well you see the arguments being put foward for gun ownership are somewhat fatuous to say the least.
Why is the first reason you all need guns "we need to protect ourselves"?

Well, I guess the world is an evil place, and we must protect ourselves. You know that is true Rich. It isn't like the 50's you grew up in.

 

[Rich]

It isn't like the 50's you grew up in.

I'm pretty sure we never had citizens armed up to the teeth then either, you'll have to ask Col to confirm this of course.
Now if you're talking about America I think you've had a gun problem since the year dot

 

[selenau837]

I'm pretty sure we never had citizens armed up to the teeth then either, you'll have to ask Col to confirm this of course.
Now if you're talking about America I think you've had a gun problem since the year dot

Ohh, I'm sorry I guess I should have said the 40's Richy boy!!

Yeehaww....we love our guns.

 

[Rich]

Yeehaww....we love our guns.

More than God?

 

[selenau837]

More than God?

Nope, love God More!!!

 

[Rich]

Nope, love God More!!!

I see, so why the need for a gun to defend yourself?

 

[selenau837]

I see, so why the need for a gun to defend yourself?

Yes, yes I see your point. If I love God so much, I wouldn't want to defend myself, and go see him sooner.

But I look at it like this. If God gave me the ability to protect myself, then use it. I'm bettin' this is going to spark a copeous amount of snide remarks, so bring it on.

 

[Rich]

Yes, yes I see your point. If I love God so much, I wouldn't want to defend myself, and go see him sooner.

But I look at it like this. If God gave me the ability to protect myself, then use it. I'm bettin' this is going to spark a copeous amount of snide remarks, so bring it on.

I don't make snide remarks, I'm rather suprised you accused me of that.
Did God give you the gun?

 

[selenau837]

I don't make snide remarks, I'm rather suprised you accused me of that.
Did God give you the gun?

My apolgoies Rich. Was feelin' a bit catty when I posted that. Can you forgive me?

God gave us the ability to create them. How we use them is up to us. They are best used to hunt for food and provide for our family. Man has taken the technology and made it what it is today.

 

[Rich]

They are best used to hunt for food and provide for our family.

Hand guns are used to hunt, somehow I don't think so, do you?
Anyway, don't you have any shops that sell food over there?

 

[Rich]

Would you bring a knife to a gun fight?

Guns are going to be associated with very bad people, I know I want protect my kids, ok my wife too. If someone breaks into your house, can your baseball bat stop a bullet?

People break into our houses to but since hand gun ownership is illegal the chances of the intruder being armed are millions to one against.
In any case is property worth more than human life, in this case it seems so in a country that calls itself Christian on one hand and yet reduces the value of life to that of property.
Don't you guys have insurance on your property, other than a gun under the pillow?

 

[ColinEssex]

You initially stated that God was 'make-believe' so the burden of proof is upon you.

If you can't back-up your statement with the facts that you insist on then why should others have to?

If something is make believe, like a fairy story, and someone else thinks it's true, its not up to me to prove what millions of people believe (that it is total fabrication), its up to the person who is saying something does exist when it clearly doesn't.

You obviously can't prove your god exists otherwise you would have done it by now. (what with you being a good ol' American an' all )

Try saying something of value...

If you took the time to read my posts instead of being so picky, you would see I have posted many valuable comments.

KEN - if that's a mobile home - where are the wheels? and how do you tow it from campsite to campsite? or is it another strange US naming thing, like the world series

Col

 

[ColinEssex]

And, yes, Col and Rich, I like guns.

Why? is it a macho thing, like I suggested earlier?

I have said before, the USA appears (to us outsiders) to worship 3 things, guns, cars and money. We get the impression every family has at least 2 cars - each the size of a small village.

Col