Shootings in US schools

[ColinEssex]

We're never going to agree about much, but lets at least be civil with one another.

Rich and I are always civil, but obviously we respond to provocation from the Yanks who think they own the place and come on with their typical hypocritical holier-than-thou attitudes.

The sooner they realise they are not the most loved country / people in the world the better.

Rich and I are all for a peaceful life.

Col

 

[Rich]

Do you realize that there are currently 127 pages of posts on this topic and a total of about five have anything to do with the actual shootings?

The remainder are Brits harping about Yanks, Yanks harping about Brits and everyone else harping at all of the above.

That's because the Yanks are just argumentative and pugnacious, we do our best to keep them in order, but it's a thankless task and one that demands constant vigilance

 

[qailoh]

...who think they own the place and come on with their typical hypocritical holier-than-thou attitudes.

Col

That's because the Yanks are just argumentative and pugnacious, we do our best to keep them in order, but it's a thankless task and one that demands constant vigilance

*cough*

If that's not a prime example of a typical, hypocritical and holier than thou attitude...

Given that these two will answer any post with another rant composed of their opinions on Americans I agree that it seems unlikely that any genuine discussion will take place. I note my observations on stricter regulations and harsher punishments for crimes committed with guns fell on deaf ears as far as these two are concerned. Yet there are obviously other posters who feel the discussion has merit and are willing to engage in a civilized dialogue. I'm still game.

 

[Alc]

I note my observations on stricter regulations and harsher punishments for crimes committed with guns fell on deaf ears as far as these two are concerned. Yet there are obviously other posters who feel the discussion has merit and are willing to engage in a civilized dialogue. I'm still game.

I've never seen any statistics, but does anyone know what proportion of gun-related crime is premeditated and what proportion is spur-of-the-moment? I only ask since the threat of punishment is often not much use when preventing a hot-blooded crime.

Also, in those cases where a nutjob walks into a school/office/mall/wherever and opens fire because the world hates him, etc, etc. are there any figures for how many of these people
(a) were physically capable of killing people en masse (thereby making the gun itself irrelevant and supporting people who use the 'guns don't kill, people do' argument as a way to defend the fact that they like having a gun)
(b) had proven access to criminal sources (thereby providing evidence to support the idea that those who want to commit crimes will always be able to get hold of a gun illegally)
(c) went with the gun option precisely because one was easy to get hold of, easy to use, requires little preparation, and is lethal even without training of any kind.

 

[qailoh]

I've never seen any statistics, but does anyone know what proportion of gun-related crime is premeditated and what proportion is spur-of-the-moment? I only ask since the threat of punishment is often not much use when preventing a hot-blooded crime.

I'm not suggesting life in prison/the death penalty would always prevent first time murderers via deterrance. It would eliminate the repeaters.

Also, in those cases where a nutjob...

Stronger standards and testing before you give someone a permit to carry.

walks into a school/office/mall/wherever and opens fire because the world hates him, etc, etc. are there any figures for how many of these people
(a) were physically capable of killing people en masse (thereby making the gun itself irrelevant and supporting people who use the 'guns don't kill, people do' argument as a way to defend the fact that they like having a gun)
(b) had proven access to criminal sources (thereby providing evidence to support the idea that those who want to commit crimes will always be able to get hold of a gun illegally)
(c) went with the gun option precisely because one was easy to get hold of, easy to use, requires little preparation, and is lethal even without training of any kind.

(a) Sharpened toothbrush comments aside, I'd not argue this one. But again, there are a lot of people who own guns I feel should not be allowed to. There is a difference between carrying a gun because you might need it and carrying one because you want to.

(b) You don't really need access to criminal sources to get a firearm. Sure a pistol is easy to hide, but so is a sawed off shotgun, which is also, according to the experts (M. Ayoob) a deadlier close quarter weapon and requires no permits to buy. A shotgun and a hacksaw would be a lot cheaper too.

(c) Again, no argument, though I'd offer an observation. I'd require training before licensing myself. The defendant at the trial I served on had no firearms training. The guy he shot 3 times lived, and it was his testimony that led to the evidence that convicted the shooter.

 

[MrsGorilla]

Rich and I are always civil, but obviously we respond to provocation from the Yanks who think they own the place and come on with their typical hypocritical holier-than-thou attitudes.

I about choked on my drink with that one. Nice one, trying to blame us even though you yourself admit you like to provoke people to see if you can get a rise out of them. And you call US hypocritical and holier-than-thou? Whew. Funny.

 

[Alc]

Stronger standards and testing before you give someone a permit to carry.

Yep, what about a written AND a practical test. Perhaps everyone should be retested every so many years, just to ensure that they still know their stuff? It works so well with cars! I mean you could spend all day looking at the roads in any country without finding anyone who possesses a full, clean driving license and still drives in a way that's dangerous, to put it mildly.

(a) Sharpened toothbrush comments aside, I'd not argue this one. But again, there are a lot of people who own guns I feel should not be allowed to. There is a difference between carrying a gun because you might need it and carrying one because you want to.

Definitely, but one person's 'need' is another's 'want'. Who gets to decide?

(b) You don't really need access to criminal sources to get a firearm.

My point exactly. If the only way to get a gun were through criminal contacts, how many shootings could have been avoided?

(c) Again, no argument, though I'd offer an observation. I'd require training before licensing myself.

And we're back to the first point. The fact that someone's trained and even licensed to use something doesn't mean he/she is going to be safe with it.

 

[qailoh]

Yep, what about a written AND a practical test. Perhaps everyone should be retested every so many years, just to ensure that they still know their stuff? It works so well with cars! I mean you could spend all day looking at the roads in any country without finding anyone who possesses a full, clean driving license and still drives in a way that's dangerous, to put it mildly.

I'd add psychological evalution as a prerequisite as well, also with retests. Anger management definitely required.

Definitely, but one person's 'need' is another's 'want'. Who gets to decide?

That would be the crux of the issue I believe, who gets to decide? Is a history of being the victim of violent crime a justification for needing a gun, or is that still a "want?"

My point exactly. If the only way to get a gun were through criminal contacts, how many shootings could have been avoided?

Vast numbers, I'm sure, but even a total ban on privately owned firearms wouldn't be an effective solution. There's that 15 year old who was killed with a MAC-10 in the UK, those are illegal for private citizens here too. The guns are already here, wishing them away isn't going to do it. How to deal with the situation that exists is the problem. A total ban on privately owned firarms would probably be quite effective in reducing gun violence but I don't think it's a realistic expectation. I'm not touting "Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns" as a justification for legal ownership, I'm saying legal or not, they'd still be here.

And we're back to the first point. The fact that someone's trained and even licensed to use something doesn't mean he/she is going to be safe with it.

True, look at all the traffic fatalities. Again, why I'd insist on psychological screening as a prerequisite for ownership, to weed out those who'd settle their issues with a gun or couldn't deal with being depressed. Training in safety and use would be to cut down on the people shooting themselves in the foot or allowing a gun to fall in the wrong hands.

 

[Rich]

I about choked on my drink with that one. Nice one, trying to blame us even though you yourself admit you like to provoke people to see if you can get a rise out of them. And you call US hypocritical and holier-than-thou? Whew. Funny.

See, argumentative

 

[statsman]

That's because the Yanks are just argumentative and pugnacious, we do our best to keep them in order, but it's a thankless task and one that demands constant vigilance

Reminds me of banging your head against a wall. It feels so good when you stop.

 

[statsman]

At the risk of seeming to defend Americans and be negative about the British...

There are millions of Americans who don't own a gun and have no wish to own on.

There are millions of Brits who own guns despite the difficulty in obtaining one. They get just a big a kick out of killing living things as their American counterparts.

At least on this continent, we don't have people on horseback watch a pack of hounds tear apart a fox or whatever other helpless creature happens to be nearby.

 

[TessB]

Rich and I are always civil, but obviously we respond to provocation from the Yanks who think they own the place and come on with their typical hypocritical holier-than-thou attitudes.

The sooner they realise they are not the most loved country / people in the world the better.

Rich and I are all for a peaceful life.

Col

Col!!!!

You are constantly condemning America!
And I, as an American, have NEVER come to you as a holier-than-thou person.
I KNOW we are NOT the most loved country. Know that for certain and for sure as I've been a member here for the past six years.

It seems to me that YOU are coming from a holier-than-thou attitude for a couple of years now and it's REALLY grating on my nerves. However... although I'm frustrated with this fact, I understand your frustrations with America. Can you please give the people on this forum who happen to be Americans a freaking break with your condescending attitude towards us????????????

If you have problems with American government, or American policy... say it. But don't lump Americans all together as some stereotypical hogwash. It's offensive! It's racist! It's belligerant! And it's ignorant. I have never, ever, ever, in my six years of being on this forum, uttered a single word of attack against any country, race, or religion. I keep an open mind and no one on this forum can EVER call me a bigot or racist. However, it strikes fear in my heart to know that so many anti-American themes are racing toward you. I fear that it MUST be anti-American propaganda to make so so incredibly comfortable at stereotyping an entire country.

I'm SICK to DEATH of it. Truly I am!
I'm NOT asking you to change your viewpoint of what is right and wrong or what course of action is appropriate in any given situation. I am simply asking you NOT to stereotype American people as evil and haughty. It sickens me.

There. That's as plain as I can be.

But... whatever... you still won't understand.

 

[ColinEssex]

Tess - I said we (Rich and I) respond to provocation from the Yanks who think they own the place etc. I did not say ALL Yanks. My comment refers to about 60% of US posters here.

America and SOME Americans lord it over others - I have witnessed this first hand whilst in Spain also in London, some Yanks treat foreigners as lesser people - it makes me sick, so much so, when some Yankee women were having a real go and upsetting a Spanish waitress (in Spain) who didn't speak English, I had to step in and tell them exactly what I thought.

The USA government in general has the same attitude to the rest of the world - it thinks it is some kind of all wonderous peace keeping force. We sadly know the the opposite is true.

Yet Americans and the USA has no idea of what effect it has on others (people or countries) it blunders on regardless

Col

 

[Rich]

The USA government in general has the same attitude to the rest of the world - it thinks it is some kind of all wonderous peace keeping force. We sadly know the the opposite is true.

Yet Americans and the USA has no idea of what effect it has on others (people or countries) it blunders on regardless

Col

Well it wasn't too bad under Bill's leadership, the problem is of course men of his calibre with sufficient funds to get elected are few and far between in the US

 

[ColinEssex]

Well it wasn't too bad under Bill's leadership, the problem is of course men of his calibre with sufficient funds to get elected are few and far between in the US

Isn't it amazing how a once popular country can go downhill so fast - the USA was very good under Bill, now it'll take decades to shake off the Bush legacy.

Yet the USA can't see it despite our trying to tell them.

Incidentally, there was an article in the paper yesterday about some US general who can't believe we don't have the equivelant of the 'Purple Heart' badge.
Thats the one they give soldiers when they break a nail or get a paper cut on active duty. Who makes them? and can we get shares in the company - it must be booming.
Anyway, our Generals told the Yank we only give out medals for outstanding acts of bravery so they have to be earned, not just for getting wounded.

Col

 

[Alc]

There are millions of Brits who own guns despite the difficulty in obtaining one. They get just a big a kick out of killing living things as their American counterparts.

Erm.... no there aren't.

There are some, yes, but 'millions' is - to put it very mildly - a gross exaggeration.

 

[GaryPanic]

Isn't it amazing how a once popular country can go downhill so fast - the USA was very good under Bill, now it'll take decades to shake off the Bush legacy.

Yet the USA can't see it despite our trying to tell them.

Incidentally, there was an article in the paper yesterday about some US general who can't believe we don't have the equivelant of the 'Purple Heart' badge.
Thats the one they give soldiers when they break a nail or get a paper cut on active duty. Who makes them? and can we get shares in the company - it must be booming.
Anyway, our Generals told the Yank we only give out medals for outstanding acts of bravery so they have to be earned, not just for getting wounded.

Col

Col

althouigh i agree with you on this Bill was a geat leader, international ,
however locally (within the US) i think a different picture would amerge

I think the reverse can be said of Bush - he appeals to the locals (witihn the US) but on an international front , useless


as to bias and Yank bashing , i think that you will have to put your hands up on this , cos the vast majority of your posts are anti american. and that all yanks shoot each other and think that they are gods choosen ones, I think what we have here is a small percentage who irrate you (and me) and you are using this small percentage and it is colouring your judgement on the rest of our american cousins .

I have never met any Yanks who are as rude as you point out to be outside of the States (met some inside the US) , but those that genreally travel are more cultured

Most US citizens know that there system is out of sink, and most would love to change it , but these aren't the people with th e money , we can also apply this same view on our own goverement , again if you haven't got th e money then your generally not going to get what you want , both systems are corrupt (in different areas)

THe US is so large that it makes the problem slightly harder to change , espically with socially different views from north to south east to west ,

here I go again rambling on ... but you get the picture

 

[TessB]

Col

althouigh i agree with you on this Bill was a geat leader, international ,
however locally (within the US) i think a different picture would amerge

I think the reverse can be said of Bush - he appeals to the locals (witihn the US) but on an international front , useless


as to bias and Yank bashing , i think that you will have to put your hands up on this , cos the vast majority of your posts are anti american. and that all yanks shoot each other and think that they are gods choosen ones, I think what we have here is a small percentage who irrate you (and me) and you are using this small percentage and it is colouring your judgement on the rest of our american cousins .

I have never met any Yanks who are as rude as you point out to be outside of the States (met some inside the US) , but those that genreally travel are more cultured

Most US citizens know that there system is out of sink, and most would love to change it , but these aren't the people with the money , we can also apply this same view on our own goverement , again if you haven't got the money then your generally not going to get what you want , both systems are corrupt (in different areas)

THe US is so large that it makes the problem slightly harder to change , espically with socially different views from north to south east to west ,

here I go again rambling on ... but you get the picture

In the words of Etta James, "AT LAST!"

Thank you, THANK you, THANK YOU, Thank you... THANK YOU!!!!!!
Side note.... I preferred Bill.... didn't trust he had my best interests at heart, but what president does? I'm not rich and powerful and they all seem to take care of their own kind. (Rich and Powerful) Depise the current one and I think everyone here knows that.

 

[ShaneMan]

Col

althouigh i agree with you on this Bill was a geat leader, international ,
however locally (within the US) i think a different picture would amerge

I think the reverse can be said of Bush - he appeals to the locals (witihn the US) but on an international front , useless


as to bias and Yank bashing , i think that you will have to put your hands up on this , cos the vast majority of your posts are anti american. and that all yanks shoot each other and think that they are gods choosen ones, I think what we have here is a small percentage who irrate you (and me) and you are using this small percentage and it is colouring your judgement on the rest of our american cousins .

I have never met any Yanks who are as rude as you point out to be outside of the States (met some inside the US) , but those that genreally travel are more cultured

Most US citizens know that there system is out of sink, and most would love to change it , but these aren't the people with th e money , we can also apply this same view on our own goverement , again if you haven't got th e money then your generally not going to get what you want , both systems are corrupt (in different areas)

THe US is so large that it makes the problem slightly harder to change , espically with socially different views from north to south east to west ,

here I go again rambling on ... but you get the picture

Gary,

Thank you for your words and your understanding. One of the more accurate post I've seen in a while. I normally avoid posting and just hang around and read, but I wanted to step in and drop a quick line of thanks. It's hard to be painted with such a broad brush and it is refreshing to hear from someone who exercises more understanding than bias.

 

[statsman]

Erm.... no there aren't.

There are some, yes, but 'millions' is - to put it very mildly - a gross exaggeration.

Granted. Would say there are 100,000 firearms in the hands of private individuals in the UK?

The point is the yahoo mentality of killing animals for sport is not a specific American disease. I bet there are even peace loving Swiss and Swedes who enjoy separating helpless creatures from the lives just for the fun of it.