The crime rate in New York (2 Viewers)

[Jon]

Let me add a Claude 3 reponse. I find Claude 3 great for both medical and legal answers. It seems to confirm that what the judge has done here is not usually permissable.

 

[NauticalGent]

Or do you recognise that innocent people who were never guilty can get charged with a guilty verdict that gets reversed on appeal?

Strangely enough, people's ability or willingness to see that depends on who it applies to.

 

[Jon]

In particular, see what the Supreme Court says on why judge Merchan's jury instructions were not constitutionally permissable.

It would appear that there are multiple Supreme Court rulings that judge Merchan ignored in order to get a conviction. He ignored the law and therefore it could be argued that he was complicit in a criminal conspiracy to defaud the electorate by manipulating jury instructions in order to facilitate a conviction.

Trump did not get a fair trial for multiple reasons, but this is one of them.

 

[GaP42]

Guilty of 34 Counts of Falsification of Business Records
Unanimous verdicts. Guilty as charged until such time as a legal decision is made otherwise. Do you believe all that appeal are not guilty? It is not our decision to determine/decide who is innocent unless we are on a jury. What is the jury system for?
So he was charged, and the jurors in making their decision assessed that the evidence showed he had falsified business records. Those acts were sufficient to adjudge his guilt.

 

[Jon]

Our posts crossed, so I suggest you read my two replies that preceded it. If you can look past your political leanings, you can see why there is a problem with this case for the reasons outlined above. Or if you disagree, please state why.

 

[Jon]

Strangely enough, people's ability or willingness to see that depends on who it applies to.

What about OJ?

 

[moke123]

The issue here is that liberals cannot state what crime he committed because the jury were never given the opportunity to specific a crime. Instead, they were given 3 different possible crimes, and none had to agree on which he committed.

Actually it's the Trumpublicans who can't understand the crime he committed.

Here's a link to Braggs filing from April 2023 called "Statement of Facts"

https://manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/2023-04-04-SOF.pdf

This lays out the details of what he's charged with.

Here's a memorandum of law which also contains the details.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/docume...das-mem-opp-defs-omnibus-motions-redacted.pdf

Here's one of merchan's decisions which includes all the arguments your trying to make.
It also includes the comparison to Hillary's Campaign finance violation, the statute of limitations, etc. It's good reading.

https://s3.documentcloud.org/docume...ss-people-v-donaldtrump-2-15-24decision-1.pdf

As I've said previously we don't have everything that's out there but I've found a few backdoors so I'll be happy to post anything interesting I come across.

 

[Jon]

Actually it's the Trumpublicans who can't understand the crime he committed.

Can you name the crime he committed? I am still waiting.

And what do you think about the jury instruction violations, where Klan member Merchan went against multiple Supreme Court rulings regarding unanimity?

 

[moke123]

The jury were never given the opportunity to say if they all agree on which crime he allegedly committed. The judge said pick any of the 3 stated crimes. And you don't have to agree on which one he committed. This is unprecedented.

The jury was unanimous on the crime he committed. You just don't understand the way the elements of a crime are applied.
It's not relevant exactly which of the 3 additional crimes each juror feels the defendant committed in furtherance of the charged crime. As long as the juror finds that the defendant committed at least one of them, it is enough to satisfy the element of the charged crime. Think of it like a murder charge where the the victim is stabbed and shot. The jury doesn't need to agree which act killed the guy, only that either, or both caused it. Poor analogy but its complicated.

 

[moke123]

And what do you think about the jury instruction violations, where Klan member Merchan went against multiple Supreme Court rulings regarding unanimity?

If you give me a cite I'd be happy to try and answer.

 

[NauticalGent]

What about OJ?

That's a funny one there. NO ONE truly believes he was innocent - because he wasn't. But my statement applies to just about any case.

 

[moke123]

Trump could easily get a not guilty even now if he wanted to.

All he needs to do is die before he exhausts all his appeals.
If you die before it's decided then the guilty verdict gets dismissed in the interest of justice.

I once had a defendant die on the witness stand during trial.

 

[Isaac]

As long as he keeps beating Biden in the polls and beating him by more and more, I'm good with these convictions. Moke is officially in an ever shrinking minority of voters.

 

[Jon]

The jury was unanimous on the crime he committed. You just don't understand the way the elements of a crime are applied.
It's not relevant exactly which of the 3 additional crimes each juror feels the defendant committed in furtherance of the charged crime. As long as the juror finds that the defendant committed at least one of them, it is enough to satisfy the element of the charged crime. Think of it like a murder charge where the the victim is stabbed and shot. The jury doesn't need to agree which act killed the guy, only that either, or both caused it. Poor analogy but its complicated.

I understand perfectly how the elements of the crime are applied. I've watched this case closely. And yes indeed, it is complicated. Why? Because it is a bespoke novel conviction that has never been tried before. They tailor made it for Mr Teflon himself.

The 3 crimes is an "alternative verdict" approach, which while allowable, the 3 crimes need to be similar in intent. But tax evasion is nothing to do wtih interfering in an election. Maybe different jurisdictions have variations from this but that is what I understand it to be.

Stabbing and shooting is similar in intent, so I understand why that might be allowed.

 

[Jon]

If you give me a cite I'd be happy to try and answer.

Instead of a citation, let me give you an interesting AI answer. I can see this going all the way to the Supreme Court so there is a definitive answer.

It would seem that there is a bit of a mishmash, where it may vary by court and by crime. If so, that does not appear to be equal justice under the law, but different justice depending on which court you are in.

Or, it may suggest that the judge can pick and choose to further their own personal goals, like the "Stop Trump" Klan judge.

 

[Jon]

Trump could easily get a not guilty even now if he wanted to.

All he needs to do is die before he exhausts all his appeals.
If you die before it's decided then the guilty verdict gets dismissed in the interest of justice.

I once had a defendant die on the witness stand during trial.

But if he dies before his appeals run out he will come back and haunt you forever, living rent free.

OMG, that would be awful! Their heartbeat was probably going ten to the dozen.

 

[Isaac]

34 Counts of Falsification of Business Records
He is increasing the crime rate by himself - supporting his own claims :
Criminal deception.

 

[Isaac]

Guilty of 34 Counts of Falsification of Business Records
Unanimous verdicts. Guilty as charged until such time as a legal decision is made otherwise. Do you believe all that appeal are not guilty? It is not our decision to determine/decide who is innocent unless we are on a jury. What is the jury system for?
So he was charged, and the jurors in making their decision assessed that the evidence showed he had falsified business records. Those acts were sufficient to adjudge his guilt.

 

[Isaac]

 

[Isaac]