The Qur'an

[The_Doc_Man]

Meaning that God does resemble His creation.

Unlike Judaism which refers to God as "the Ineffable" meaning we cannot even say that much. For the record, I was raised Methodist before I lost my faith, but I did have a Jewish great-grandmother. So I heard a few things regarding Judaism as well as the more traditional Protestant dogma from Mom and Dad. I find it typical of Mankind's arrogance to have imagined a god that they resemble, because so many megalomaniacs imagine their own god-like essence. For my friends on the forum who are religious, note that I tossed that barb against Mankind as a whole and not directed to any specific person here or elsewhere.

 

[Isaac]

Yes it is because an atheist business owner cannot consider the applicant's distasteful religious belief as reason not to employ them.

He has the option to start a religion, which many atheists qualify for easily due to their zeal and fervor for a negative assertion belief that outweighs most believers' level of belief.

Hypocrisy would be if the business owners asking to have the exact opposite done to them, but they're not. A christian will be excluded from working at a muslim institution as readily as they can include christians at theirs

 

[Isaac]

Unlike Judaism which refers to God as "the Ineffable" meaning we cannot even say that much. For the record, I was raised Methodist before I lost my faith, but I did have a Jewish great-grandmother. So I heard a few things regarding Judaism as well as the more traditional Protestant dogma from Mom and Dad. I find it typical of Mankind's arrogance to have imagined a god that they resemble, because so many megalomaniacs imagine their own god-like essence. For my friends on the forum who are religious, note that I tossed that barb against Mankind as a whole and not directed to any specific person here or elsewhere.

I tend to agree with you on this. Our minds can't help but imagine 'something', and I'm not bothered by that, because it's a limitation of humanity.
But I think we really have no idea of what God will 'look' like, and even sayign that is funny, because God may not "look" like anything! He's spirit, not flesh! I think even many if not most unbelievers have a vague sense that there IS such a thing as spirit, because the undefinable magic of human relationships tends to confirm it in the minds of most who marvel at it

Edit - PS the bold print is very annoying, but I remind myself that if I am tempted to read his posts, that's on me - I'm free not to!
I personally avoid putting in bold except for the rarest of words, because I know how the mind works, people's eyes will jump to the bold print first, which will ruin the punchline anyway

 

[The_Doc_Man]

I think even many if not most unbelievers have a vague sense that there IS such a thing as spirit

I actually have no issue with that statement, though I don't think I have that feeling. But my objection is personification and the idea that this incredibly vague spirit that you mention has some kind of existence in such a way to have free will or a sense of vengeance or ANY kind of intelligent, reasoned response to the way people think and act. My questions at this level are about sentience.

It may be, to some people, that it is yet another chicken-and-egg dilemma. Did God create us in His image, or did WE imagine God in OUR image? I'll admit that I have no provable answer either. However, I'll say that I am more comfortable and more at peace logically on the atheistic side of that discussion. To me it requires fewer extreme assumptions than the deist side of the argument.

 

[Isaac]

Did God create us in His image, or did WE imagine God in OUR image?

That is a great statement and I think meditating on it is very good, even for Christians, as it challenges us to understand (or fail to understand) God on His terms, not in our neat little box. But this is also why the arguments "but would God allow/do such-and-such sad thing?" have little effect on me, as I figure if God exists, He is whatever He is, I cannot change it by wishing He were something different.

But I love that quote, it's good food for thought for just about anyone in any thought camp

 

[ColinEssex]

If there is a god who created the universe, earth, the planets, mankind and everything - who created the devil or Satan or hell or whatever you call it?
Did God do it? If so, then that was a big mistake.
Col

 

[aziz rasul]

Sorry I meant to say Meaning that God does NOT resemble His creation.

A christian will be excluded from working at a muslim institution as readily as they can include christians at theirs

A Muslim will be excluded from working at a Christian institution as readily as they can include Muslims at theirs.

 

[aziz rasul]

Isaac, hear are some stuff not in bold.

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come to fulfil.
18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17-20
However Paul tells us to put the law to one side i.e.
By SETTING ASIDE IN HIS FLESH THE LAW with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace.
Ephesians 2:15

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and KILL them in front of me.'"
Luke 19:27

Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division!
Luke 12:51

15. “Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to DEATH.
17. And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to DEATH.
20. And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall NOT BE PUNISHED: for he is his money.
Exodus 21:15, 17, 20-21

For God COMMANDED, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely DIE.’
Matthew 15:4

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to DEATH men and women, CHILDREN and INFANTS, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
1 Samuel 15:3

 

[conception_native_0123]

If so, then that was a big mistake.

explain your reasoning why.

 

[Jon]

Question: If God exists and created everything, why doesn't he eradicate childhood disease, make everyone believe in him, remove hell, end suffering, and put a stop to evil?

 

[Isaac]

If there is a god who created the universe, earth, the planets, mankind and everything - who created the devil or Satan or hell or whatever you call it?
Did God do it? If so, then that was a big mistake.
Col

According to Christianity, (to simplify and paraphrase - but note, I am not a theologian), Satan was an angel who rebelled against God

 

[ColinEssex]

According to Christianity, (to simplify and paraphrase - but note, I am not a theologian), Satan was an angel who rebelled against God

Whatever it is, who created it?
Col

 

[ColinEssex]

explain your reasoning why.

If one is a devil worshipper then I suppose it wasn't a big mistake.
Col

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Some folks thought it was totally blasphemous, but the TV series Lucifer implicitly asked the question, "Can God redeem Lucifer?" Which leads to the question of which one is more powerful? If God is more powerful, then the answer should be "Yes" - which leads to the question of WHY God did not redeem Lucifer. Did he do something unforgivable? If so, what action is SO extreme that even God cannot forgive someone? But then if God cannot redeem Lucifer, which one is more powerful? And if he WON'T redeem Lucifer, why won't He? If it was because Lucifer dared to exercise free will, then why do WE have free will (which we do, according to the Bible)?

Jon, I know your feelings on free will, so note that this is a constrained discussion for which free will is assumed valid only in the narrow context.

Just a philosophical question to see who'll gnaw on that bone.

 

[Isaac]

If one is a devil worshipper then I suppose it wasn't a big mistake.
Col

You've lost me at this point, but keep seeking!

 

[Galaxiom]

Question: If God exists and created everything, why doesn't he eradicate childhood disease, make everyone believe in him, remove hell, end suffering, and put a stop to evil?

God enjoys watching suffering. Otherwise He would stop it happening.

He also loves the smell of burning flesh. Exod. 29. [18]. I guess that is why He created Hell.

 

[conception_native_0123]

God enjoys watching suffering

not

 

[Jon]

Jon, I know your feelings on free will, so note that this is a constrained discussion for which free will is assumed valid only in the narrow context.

Actually, I do believe I have free will. It is just logically that I cannot understand how that is the case. So on one level, I believe it is not possible to have free will due to the cause and effect nature of the Universe, but on another level I feel I have choice and therefore it is true. Consider it as a type of faith, because I am thinking that while I cannot currently understand why I have free will, it may be because the answers have yet to appear in science.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

As you know, I take a more pragmatic approach.

First, I look at the very strong chance that when it comes to the brain, what we are looking at with consciousness is an emergent property (that emerged a LONG time ago) in which your mind - and thus your will, free or otherwise - isn't in the hardware of the brain but rather is a combination of evolutionary firmware and neural networking - analogous to the idea that you can load any of several different operating systems to the same computer and get different behavior. Not to mention different apps. If that analogy is even just CLOSE to correct, then consciousness and sentience are 2nd-order or higher brain functions that only slightly depend on biochemistry. They are FAR more dependent on what is stored in the brain, whereas the deterministic viewpoint focuses purely on the mechanics (chemistry) of that storage.

Second, when dealing with chemical potentials, the difference between two conflicting potentials is likely very small, leading to one of the primary requirements for the applicability of chaos theory. This brings into play the factor of "sensitive dependence on initial conditions." For a human, "initial conditions" can go back a long way. How did the Bard of Avon put it? "The past is prolog."

Chaos theory as applied to humans simply means that to actually predict behavior you need full knowledge of ALL inputs - including PAST inputs - to predict a given action. Since this complete knowledge is large enough to be a full lifetime for some folks, our brains can't hold the required information. Thus, IN EFFECT if not in actuality, our actions are unpredictable and thus we might as well call what we have "free will" even if there ARE elements of predictability.

As a side note, I remember playing a particular "game" called "Parry", which was an early AI dialog system. Oddly enough, Parry came closer to passing the Turing test than many other AI dialogs of the time, because... he wasn't a ordinary "person" - he was a paranoid schizophrenic. Turns out that certain mental deficits remove some of the randomness from your verbal choices and thus make it easier to emulate your dialog.

Watching as Aziz spouts his verses, it occurs to me that a particular predictability also applies in religious discussions. While I would NEVER accuse Aziz of mental defect, it DOES appear that some extreme adherents to extreme religions DO have a certain level of paranoia - the feeling that someone is out to punish them for apparently innocent actions. They have the feeling that someone is looking over their shoulder, always watching them. Which is one of the elements of paranoia.

(See how I directed the conversation back to the original topic?)

 

[Jon]

Thus, IN EFFECT if not in actuality, our actions are unpredictable and thus we might as well call what we have "free will" even if there ARE elements of predictability.

Or in other words, if an AI super-intelligence looked at us, they may say, "Those poor fools think they have free will because they cannot predict the outcomes of one another. Yet we, as a super-intelligence can." Prior to the science of fluid mechanics, we can say the water had free will. Yet after we created that field of expertise, the water lost its free will.

I say that free will is independent of anyones ability to predict the future. Then again, in order to prove your case you might need to make the prediction to say, "There, I told you so. No free will."