The Qur'an

[The_Doc_Man]

Prior to the science of fluid mechanics, we can say the water had free will. Yet after we created that field of expertise, the water lost its free will.

Weak argument if you take the approach that our intelligence is a second-order emergent phenomenon whereas fluid dynamics works strictly on first-order laws of physics.

 

[Jon]

How I see it, it does not matter if it is first or second order. Fluid dynamics works on the laws of physics, just like everything else in the Universe. The human brain has no escape from these laws. Having intelligence (or its illusion) is no get-out clause. Everything is built from atoms and the human brain is made from 75% water, which is also operating according to the laws of fluid mechanics, which operate based on the laws of physics.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Jon, by that logic, operating systems are illusions. Apps are illusions. It's all hardware and circuitry in that viewpoint, but it excludes combinations and arrangements of things that are made up of the same exact components. Music couldn't have the effect it does if it was all "just" vibrations. If you take a reductionist view of "sum of its parts" then music can't exist... but it does. The great master painters merely smeared oil-based pigments on canvas but if you reduce them to the chemicals, they are just a messy blob. It is the combinations that make a difference and that is NOT just a matter of chemistry OR biochemistry. There is more to it than that.

Getting back to the religious theme of this thread, if we are somehow greater than the sum of our parts then EITHER there actually IS a god OR our minds are sentient as a result of some second-order or higher phenomenon that doesn't directly depend on its substrate for ideas. Since I am an atheist, I have no other choice than to choose the latter option. And, Jon, as I recall, you are like me in that religious preference.

 

[Isaac]

God enjoys watching suffering. Otherwise He would stop it happening.

He also loves the smell of burning flesh. Exod. 29. [18]. I guess that is why He created Hell.

Another way to describe Hell is the misery people choose when they choose to reject God - that aloneness of being away from God is a sad place.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

that aloneness of being away from God is a sad place.

This presupposes that Ecclesiastes 9 is wrong.

ECCL 9:5 - For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

ECCL 9:10 - Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

If the dead have no further reward, your statement isn't quite right, is it? If in death there is no knowledge and no wisdom, then what IS Heaven? (From the sound of it, eternal boredom.)

 

[Isaac]

This presupposes that Ecclesiastes 9 is wrong.

ECCL 9:5 - For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.

ECCL 9:10 - Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

If the dead have no further reward, your statement isn't quite right, is it? If in death there is no knowledge and no wisdom, then what IS Heaven? (From the sound of it, eternal boredom.)

Eccl 9 is wrong. It is the telling of a story of a man who came to the end of his search for satisfaction apart from God.

The Bible has stories of people raping their sister, too - that does not mean it is espousing the doing so.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

But then, like the Quran, the Bible is merely a retelling of beliefs of others who had this belief in a god of some kind or another.

 

[Galaxiom]

Another way to describe Hell is the misery people choose when they choose to reject God - that aloneness of being away from God is a sad place.

There are millions of happy people who don't accept the god myths. There are even more miserable believers.

 

[Galaxiom]

Eccl 9 is wrong. It is the telling of a story of a man who came to the end of his search for satisfaction apart from God.

The Bible has stories of people raping their sister, too - that does not mean it is espousing the doing so.

Then there is the story of the incestuous pedophile, Job whose daughters bore him children. It blames the daughters and tells us Job is a good man. He also claimed his wife had turned into a pillar of salt when she mysteriously disappeared while in his company.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

You know what, G? I can take the "pillar of salt" description. Chaldean astronomers from approx. 3200 BCE reported (and recorded notes on) a flaming meteor heading towards Sodom and Gomorrah - but modern archaeologists found no crater. If the flaming meteor was a bolide, it exploded in a ball of fire and incinerated everyone beneath it. The result of that kind of heat WOULD turn a human into a pillar of salt. Mostly sodium and potassium salts. But folks who sought shelter in the nearby caves would have been protected from the flash-burn. So I can actually believe the story - except, of course, the part about it being God's wrath.

Then again, that is typical of the style... something bad happens, so after the fact concoct a story to explain it as God's wrath.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Then there is the story of the incestuous pedophile, Job whose daughters bore him children. It blames the daughters and tells us Job is a good man. He also claimed his wife had turned into a pillar of salt when she mysteriously disappeared while in his company.

That was Lot, not Job. Keep reading to find out more. Lot's daughters got him drunk and caused this to happen. They still had the wickedness of that city they once lived in still in them. Did you think everyone in the Bible is without sin? Unfortunately for Lot's daughters, they brought about the Moab's and Amorite's. They would turn out to be great sinners and enemies of God's people.

 

[Galaxiom]

Lot's daughters got him drunk and caused this to happen. They still had the wickedness of that city they once lived in still in them.

Many a pedophile has blamed their victims.

History is written by the victors who often claim that the vanquished were evil. The truth is the Hebrews were violently invaders and participated in multiple brutal genocides, looting the towns of those they murdered for precious metals and jewels which they put in a box and worshipped.

There will be no peace on Earth while Abraham's Minions persist, whatever their flavour.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Lot was not a pedofile the way you know that term today.

History is written by the victors who often claim that the vanquished were evil. The truth is the Hebrews were violently invaders and participated in multiple brutal genocides, looting the towns of those they murdered for precious metals and jewels which they put in a box and worshipped.

Sodom and Gamorah were of the most wicked in the eyes of the Lord. They suffered the consequences of their sin, plain and simple. What they attempted to do to the angels was bad enough, but there wasn't one upright person in that land. God did a lot of judging in the old testament. Things changed after his son paid the sin bill.

 

[aziz rasul]

Question: If God exists and created everything, why doesn't he eradicate childhood disease, make everyone believe in him, remove hell, end suffering, and put a stop to evil?

It's not for us to question God. What's important is that those who deserve to go to heaven will do so because they deserved it and those who deserve to go to helln will do so because they deserved it. Any sufferring in this life will be taken into account.
Why do men create prisons?

Satan was an angel who rebelled against God

Not according to Islam. He is a jinn, a different creation by God.

When the angels said: “O Mary! Allaah gives you the good news of a Word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, who is illustrious in this world and the hereafter, and who is one of those brought near [to Allaah].
Qur'an 3.45

171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion or utter anything concerning Allaah but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allaah, His Word that He sent to Mary, and a Spirit (Gabriel) from Him [that He sent]. So believe in Allaah and His messengers, and do not say “Three.” Desist, it is better for you! Allaah is one God. Far exalted is He above having offspring. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth. Allaah is sufficient a disposer of affairs.
172. The Messiah would never scorn to be a servant to Allaah, nor would the angels who are nearest to Allaah. As for those who scorn His service and are arrogantly proud, He shall gather them all to Himself to answer.
Qur'an 4.171-2

They have indeed disbelieved those who say: “Allaah is the Messiah son of Mary.” Say [O Muhammad!]: “Who then can do anything against Allaah if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, his mother, and everyone on earth?” Allaah’s is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He creates what He wills. Allaah is able to do all things.
Qur'an 5.17

Surely they disbelieve those who say: “Allaah is the Messiah son of Mary.” The Messiah himself said: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever joins other gods with Allaah, for him Allaah has forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. The evildoers shall have no helpers.”
Qur'an 5.72

The Messiah son of Mary was no other than a messenger before whom [similar] messengers passed away, and his mother was a saintly woman. They used to eat food [like other human beings]. See how We make the revelations clear to them, and see how they are deluded!
Qur'an 5.75

 

[aziz rasul]

changed after his son paid the sin bill.

Who alone is IMMORTAL and who lives in unapproachable light, whom NO ONE HAS SEEN or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
1Timothy 6:16

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.
The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Ezekiel 18:20

Hence Jesus is NOT God and we are responsible for our sins as the Bible and also the Qur'an say so.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Go ahead, Aziz, and continue to post that self-serving (and highly monotonous) text.

But then again, Muhammad was surely a son of a woman who ate the same food as his chronological counterparts. Nothing divine about him either. He was just another messenger. Oh the other hand, Muslims go crazy if we depict Muhammad and yet when we depict Jesus you shrug it off. They were both just messengers, right? Care to address that discrepancy? You have admitted that Jesus was counting among Muslims as a messenger. I have never heard anything stating the divinity of Muhammad. So why all the fuss?

<Imagines a picture of a frowning Allah who sees His people worshiping a mortal man.>

 

[aziz rasul]

Go ahead, Aziz, and continue to post that self-serving (and highly monotonous) text.

I don't need your permission.

And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval. They are almost on the verge of assaulting those who recite to them Our verses. Say, "Then shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that? [It is] the Fire which Allaah has promised those who disbelieve, and wretched is the destination."
Qur’an – Surah al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage) 22:72

Never said that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was divine. Where did you get that from? He was indeed another messenger but the Seal of the Prophets. We don't depict any Prophet. I don't see any discrepancy. It may be your imagination and you are the one who is making the fuss where there isn't any.

You cannot make an image of God as He does NOT resemble His creation.

Indeed, those who abuse Allaah and His Messenger - Allaah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment.
Qur'an 33:57

64. Indeed, Allaah has CURSED the DISBELIEVERS and prepared for them a BLAZE.
65. Abiding therein FOREVER, they will NOT FIND a protector or a helper.
66. The Day their FACES will be turned about in the FIRE, they will say, "How we wish we had obeyed Allaah and obeyed the Messenger."
Qur'an 33:64-66

 

[Mike Krailo]

Who alone is IMMORTAL and who lives in unapproachable light, whom NO ONE HAS SEEN or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
1Timothy 6:16

The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child.
The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Ezekiel 18:20

Hence Jesus is NOT God and we are responsible for our sins as the Bible and also the Qur'an say so.

Boy are you mistaken and greatly deceived. When Paul (formally Saul) was on the road to Damascus, he seen the risen lord Jesus Christ and was blinded by his light after looking at him. He clearly identified himself as Jesus of Nazareth and Saul was immediately converted to a believer by virtue of having seen and heard him. The events that followed included being healed of his blindness due to his faith that Jesus would do this for him through another believer. Having persecuted many Christians because he was following the Jewish Law of the old testament, Saul would now claim to be a believer in Christ Jesus and now call himself Paul to mark the conversion. Of course he was not the only one to witness the risen Christ, but he is the most famous one.

There is a new covenant my friend, you had better do some better research before you are wasted away by being bound to the old covenant which is impossible for anyone to uphold or abide by without Christ Jesus. Try as you may to do this on your own, you will never ever measure up to the requirement of the Law in the old testament. Not gonna happen. Failing to take God's free but very precious gift would be an awful mistake. Why would you waste God's own blood on the cross trying to go it alone?

 

[conception_native_0123]

he seen

he SAW =)

 

[Mike Krailo]

he SAW =)

Somehow that reminded me of the old Hee Haw tv series that used to be on ages ago.