Are you an atheist?

[Lightwave]

This is interesting although like the man says it just kicks the can down the road. Who created the laws of physics? ok ok I know it was god.

Scientists suggest our present universe doesn't need a creator

 

[Rabbie]

This is interesting although like the man says it just kicks the can down the road. Who created the laws of physics? ok ok I know it was god.

Scientists suggest our present universe doesn't need a creator

But which god? And where did this god come from? Who created him or her?

I find it puzzling that creationists argue that because of the complexity of lifeforms around them there must be a creator but see no need to have a creator for their god who is by definition extremely complex

 

[aziz rasul]

God has always existed i.e. has no beginning and will always exist. Everything else has a beginning including us although we will never die so we will exist forever.

Even the universe has a beginning and an end. Scientists have theorised with the fact the universe will contract, the universe will become dense and become a singularity and will re-explode again from this singularity.

The Day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolleth up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it. (It is) a promise (binding) upon Us. Lo! We are to perform it.
Qur’an - Surah al-Anbiyaa (The Prophets) 21:104 See also 10:34, 27:64, 39:67 and 50:15.

 

[Galaxiom]

Even the universe has a beginning and an end. Scientists have theorised with the fact the universe will contract, the universe will become dense and become a singularity and will re-explode again from this singularity.

Incorrect. Some scientists have hypothesised with the idea the universe will contract. The facts at present are that the expansion of the universe is observed to be accelerating. The mechanisms that govern this behaviour are not understood.

Despite the complete lack of observational evidence, you have taken the "Big Crunch" hypothesis as a fact because it fits with your Qur'anic prejudice. The mechanism behind your "theory"? The same as every other phenomenon in the Universe. The Will of Allah. Useless as an explanation, devoid of predictive potential and entirely untestable.

 

[aziz rasul]

you have taken the "Big Crunch" hypothesis as a fact

Actually I haven't. I have just simply put it in the mix as an observation, no more no less. You're reading too much into it, me thinks.

Here is something which is fact

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Qur’an - Surah al-Furqan (The Criterion) 25:53

Here is a general verse, unrelated to science.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other)). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allaah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allaah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Qur’an - Surah al-Hujraat (The Inner Apartments) 49:13

 

[Alc]

Here is something which is fact

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Qur’an - Surah al-Furqan (The Criterion) 25:53

Sorry if I'm being dense (didn't get much sleep last night) but what's the point being made there?

 

[Brianwarnock]

A lot of discussion about creation but perhaps the universe has been here for ever and will be but keeps going through changes.

 

[aziz rasul]

Sorry if I'm being dense (didn't get much sleep last night) but what's the point being made there?

See page 22 in http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf

God in His Book talks about his creation, this is how we Signs of His existence.

 

[Alc]

See page 22 in http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf

God in His Book talks about his creation, this is how we Signs of His existence.

Thanks, but I actually meant since the conversation is about personal beliefs, how does that passage qualify as a fact? I get that it's a fact that that is what's written in the book, but I assume that isn't what you meant?

 

[aziz rasul]

The purpose of giving this and some of the other verses in previous posts is to convince people that the Creator does indeed exist.

 

[Alc]

The purpose of giving this and some of the other verses in previous posts is to convince people that the Creator does indeed exist.

But why THAT one in particular? If one didn't believe before, why would stating THAT verse as fact change their mind, as opposed to any other?

 

[aziz rasul]

That's just one of many already given. When I have talked to reverts, each quotes a different verse that made them become Muslims. Who know who will change their mind. when reading that one.

 

[Alc]

Good luck. I don't see anything beyond what fans of the bible offer as 'facts' but, as you say, some people may get convinced.

 

[aziz rasul]

Well Muslim reverts have increased in the west for a few decades now so it must be working to some extent.

 

[Alc]

I notice you use revert as opposed to convert. So this method is more targetted at those who were once muslims but stopped believing, rather than those who were never muslim?

 

[Galaxiom]

I expect by "revert", Aziz alludes to the notion that there only ever was one religion and that anyone who converts from other religions or indeed no religion, is simply returning to what he sees as the natural state of the human condition. Islam.

However the fact is that very few people come from atheism to any religion. However many shuffle between them experimenting with both Eastern and Western traditions.

People brought up in a religious environment are often left with a religious shaped hole in their psyche even if they have rejected their parents faith in childhood. Typically they will tell of how they researched multiple religions as adult and then settled on one, not necessarily that of their parents.

The point is they have a desperate need for the certainty of the simplistic philosophy that is offered by religion.

 

[Galaxiom]

Well Muslim reverts have increased in the west for a few decades now so it must be working to some extent.

Although Islam is increasing in the West this is to a large extent due to migration and the higher birth rate among Muslims.

In fact the fastest growing religious position by far is that of no religion.

The Australian Census 2011 figures were released last week. Those reporting "No Religion" has increased from about seventeen percent of the population in 2006 to over 22 percent. This is an increase of over one and half million people in five years. Far more than the total number of Muslim in the country.

A significant percentage don't answer the Census question. Moreover many Australian still report their religion based on notions of their heritage but are not actually practicing the religion at all.

Religion among young people is plummeting.

Some countries, particularly in North Western Europe have even higher percentages of their population who reject religion. These countries are among the most highly educated and productive societies on the planet. Research also shows they are significantly happier than countries with strong religious traditions particularly those of the Abrahamic faiths.

 

[Galaxiom]

Here is something which is fact

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Qur’an - Surah al-Furqan (The Criterion) 25:53

Fact?? Salination of waterways is a significant problem in many dry countries. I guess the salt water has defied Allaah and will be punished mercilessly.

Here is a general verse, unrelated to science.

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other)). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allaah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allaah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
Qur’an - Surah al-Hujraat (The Inner Apartments) 49:13

We know that mankind did not arise from two individuals. By "unrelated to science", you even seem to acknowledge that Allaah got that bit wrong.

In science, a hypothesis is rejected if it fails on just one count to match the observed reality. Your hypothesis that the Qur'an is the work of a supernatural being is thus rejected.

 

[aziz rasul]

We are all born as Muslims, hence the word is revert i.e. we revert back to Islam. Even Satan whose actual name is Iblis was a Muslim before he became an unbeliever by disobeying God by not prostating to Adam (peace be upon him).

172. And (remember) when thy Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their reins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves, (saying): Am I not your Lord? They said: Yea, verily. We testify. (That was) lest ye should say at the Day of Resurrection: Lo! Of this we were unaware;
173. Or lest ye should say: "Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us because of the deeds of men who were futile?"
174. Thus do We explain the signs in detail; and perchance they may turn (unto Us).
Qur’an - Surah al-A`raaf (The Heights) 7:172-4

 

[Uncle Gizmo]

So where do women fit in the scheme of things?

We now have "The Muslim Brotherhood" not a good start from the perspective of democracy, excluding 50% of the population?