Are you an atheist?

[aziz rasul]

That is an odd one for a Muslim to point out considering the Qur'an concurs with this value.

As a pre-requisite to understanding the so called ‘six days’ of creation of the universe, often incorrectly given in some early English translations of the Qur’an, we need to be aware that the reference to the ‘six days’ do not refer to six Earthly days in the original Arabic i.e. time measured according to the movement of the earth in relation to the sun.

During the early stages of the universe, the Sun and Earth did not exist, as the above verses have shown. The Qur’an often refers to the word ‘Day’ as a period of time that will come to pass in post tense to refer to the hereafter e.g. Day of Judgement or the Day of Resurrection. Some Qur’anic examples are 1:4, 3:9, 3:24-30, 3:106, 6:15, 6:130, 7:51, 7:59, 10:15, 15:35-8, 16:111, 18:52, 19:38-9, 21:103-4, 24:64, 26:82, 27:83, 28:65, 31:33, 37:20-1, 38:16, 40:15, etc.

The Arabic singular (wahid) word for a period of time is yaum, Hebrew - yôm. In the Arabic language there is also a dual (tasniya) classification i.e. yaumain (two of). The plural (jamaa) consisting of three or more, is ayam. The word yaum has more than one meaning in which one of them is a day. But it also takes the meaning of a period of time.

Here are some occasions where the word yaum is used in the Qur’an to show that the interpretation of the word yaum is a large span of time.

The angels and the Spirit (Gabriel) ascend unto Him in a period of time (yaum) the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Qur’an – Surah al-Ma’arij (The Ways of Ascent) 70:4

By the heaven full of paths,
Qur’an - Surah az-Zaariyat (The Winnowing Winds) 51:7

He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, in a period of time (yaum), the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
Qur’an - Surah as-Sajda (The Prostration) 32:5 See also 22:47.

The Creator mentions six distinct periods or stages of growth of the universe.

9. Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two periods (yaumain), and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of all Creation.
10. “He set in the (Earth) mountains standing firm. He blessed it. He measured therein its sustenance in four periods (ayam - this includes the above two periods of the solid Earth and two periods of the formless Earth as a gaseous evolving entity), in due proportion, in accordance with the needs of those who ask for sustenance.
11. Moreover (tumma) He comprehended in His design the heaven, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth (the earth at this stage is in a gaseous form): "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. “Then He ordained them seven heavens in two periods (yaumain), and he assigned to each heaven its mandate by Revelation. And We adorned the lower heaven with luminaries and provided it a guard. Such is the decree of the All Mighty, the Full of Knowledge.”
Qur’an - Surah Fussilat (Explained in Detail) 41:9-12 See also 2:29, 13:3 and 16:15.

The above verses do not lay down the sequence of the creation. We are informed that the seven heavens or firmaments were created in two periods. The formless matter constituting the eventual Earth was formed in two periods, and lastly the Earth as a solid entity with its mountains and pasture was formed in two periods.

There are other verses that do lay down an exact sequence of the creation of the universe i.e. showing the progression in which the various components of the universe came into existence: -

27. Are you the harder to create or is it the heaven that (God) built?
28. He raised its canopy and fashioned it with harmony.
29. He made dark the night and He brought out the forenoon (the light).
30. And after that He spread (Earth) it out.
31. Therefrom he drew out its water and its pasture.
32. And the mountains He has fixed firmly.
Qur’an - Surah an-Naazi`aat (Those who drag forth) 79:27-32 See also 50:7, 67:3, 71:15 and 78:12.

Scientifically, verses 27-28 relate to the gaseous state of the early universe. Verse 29 refers to the creation of the sun (and other stars). Verses 30-31 refer to the formless or early state of the Earth whilst verse 32 refers to the Earth as a solid entity. In science we know through gradual cooling of the universe from its initial extremely high temperatures, the universe and its components begin to take shape. The sun and the earth are more relevant to us.

To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decrees a matter, He says to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:117 See also 6:73, 6:101, 10:4, 10:34, 27:64, 29:19, 37:6, 39:62, 54:49-50 and 85:13.

And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six periods, and naught of weariness touched Us.
Qur’an – Surah Qaf (the Letter Qaf) 50:38 See also 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 14:5, 22:47, 25:59, 32:4, 46:3 & 33.

Verse 50:38 shows recognition of material matter existing in space; this is referred to as dark matter in the scientific world, which comprises approximately 85% of the universe. In addition the verse clearly shows that God did not need to rest, as described in the Old Testament, after His creation of the universe. God does not suffer from the frailties that man has to endure. God is Perfect.

However on reading we can see that it describes a flat earth.

What verse are you referring to?

As far as the 7 heavens etc. is concerned I don’t have any knowledge but will find out.

 

[aziz rasul]

This strategy simply does not work when confronted by intelligence and real knowledge.

You shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and persons and you shall certainly hear from the people given the book before you and those who associate partners with God much grieving talk. But if you are steadfast and disciplined, then that is of the (required) resolve in affairs. 3:186

“Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Surely, falsehood was bound to vanish” 17:81

Neither the Jews nor the Christians will be pleased with you (O Muhammad) till you follow their millah. Say: “Surely, the guidance of God is the (true) guidance”. And if you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, then you would not have any protector or helper against God. 2:120

They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. 3:113

 

[mispiece]

It seems lots of people choose "My God is the only God and He definitely exists." Like this one. For we know that if there are creations, for sure creator exists.
Just like the programs we are trying to create. If we finish one, for sure we become creator of that program.

 

[Vassago]

I'm going to start placing code in my databases praising me for being their creator. If enough people come across it, they might actually start believing I'm God.

 

[Dick7Access]

I'm going to start placing code in my databases praising me for being their creator. If enough people come across it, they might actually start believing I'm God.

Sounds good to me, can I be vice-god

 

[Galaxiom]

Sounds good to me, can I be vice-god

So this church is going to have a god who is in charge of vices? Should one god rule over all vices or would it be better to spread the responsibility around a bit?

 

[Dick7Access]

So this church is going to have a god who is in charge of vices? Should one god rule over all vices or would it be better to spread the responsibility around a bit?

Your god and your asking me these questions?

 

[Vassago]

Your god and your asking me these questions?

No, I'm the one God to rule them all. I thought we established that.

 

[Dick7Access]

No, I'm the one God to rule them all. I thought we established that.

Yes, of course. I don't want to the big god, I just want to be one of the little gods. You want to appoint me to a committe of other little gods, then that has to be my place.

 

[Galaxiom]

I just want to be one of the little gods.

How about a position as a prophet? Most of them seem to do pretty well without the responsiblity for running heavenly portfolios.

A bit of damage to the temporal lobe of the brain and you will be well on your way.

Scientific analysis suggests that the hyper-religious behaviour of prophets like Abraham and Mohammed may have been due to epliptic seizures in the temporal lobe of the brain. Hyper-religiousity has often been observed in patients while being monitored on brain scanning equipment.

The temporal lobe is also known to be the part of the brain that is most active in individuals during religious experiences.

The practices of rocking or nodding seen performed by Jews at the Wailing Wall and often encouraged among those studying the Qur'an, or indeed the call to prayer itself, probably puts the affected regions of the brain into some kind of hypnotic trace inducing the epileptic-like malfunctions that manifest as religious delusion and hallucinations.

There is certainly some kind of hynosis involved that allows the religious to adopt their holy texts as inspirational works despite the obviously sick reality of what is written in them.

Aziz shows the extent of such delusion by repeatedly claiming that the simplistic and often contradictory descriptions in the Qur'an are scientifically accurate. The cognitve disassociation with all criticism is evident and is really a quite remarkable phenomenon.

 

[aziz rasul]

Aziz shows the extent of such delusion by repeatedly claiming that the simplistic and often contradictory descriptions in the Qur'an are scientifically accurate. The cognitve disassociation with all criticism is evident and is really a quite remarkable phenomenon.

You questioned the so-called six 'days' in the Qur'an, yet when I give a detailed answer this is what you back with? I don't think you are up for an honest and detailed debate of the subject of this thread but seem to be just simply ranting with no clear direction.

If you were sitting an exam and gave the answers you give, you wouldn't get any marks and would fail.

 

[Lightwave]

If you were sitting an exam and gave the answers you give, you wouldn't get any marks and would fail.

Galaxiom sits the equivalent of exams every day in these very forums and by giving measured and appropriate responses he has helped many people.

These people have marked his answers by giving him thanks. Kind of equates to lots of marks in my eyes.

 

[recyan]

If you were sitting an exam and gave the answers you give, you wouldn't get any marks and would fail.

To my eyes, Galaxiom has been supporting his replies with reasonable discussion whereas, I find that, you are only quoting the scriptures.
He appears to have looked at all sides of the coin.
Your response shows no analysis from you as an un-biased individual.

 

[aziz rasul]

Galaxiom sits the equivalent of exams every day in these very forums and by giving measured and appropriate responses he has helped many people.

I was referring to his latest posts on this thread not in reference to other MS Access based threads. You need to read my post in the right context.

Your response shows no analysis from you as an un-biased individual.

If you look at my answer to the six 'days' you will see that I have analysed the issue as well as quote the verses. Galaxiom himself had referred to these verses so it was only fair to do the same but with analysis. So don't understand where you are coming from?

You say he has looked at both sides of the coin but has not made any meaningful comment on my analysis. Hmmmm.

 

[Galaxiom]

We have all heard the same trite answers about the interpretation of "six days" from those who hold the Bible in the same esteem as Aziz does with the Qur'an. It is incredibly boring.

Oh they were "periods of time" not literal days. Same old story, same old get out clause, same old Arab myths shared by Islam, Judaism and Christianity, so much of it from derived ancient Egyptian myths. Amusing how Aziz belittles the Biblical story for being literally "six days" but affords credibility to Mohammed's version of exactly the same myth. (Though Mohammed demonstrates he can't even manage single digit arithmetic to keep the story consistent.)

Oh, 50,000 years. That is so much more credible. However you are still out by five orders of magnitude from the science which puts you absolutely nowhere near the facts.

Aziz presents exactly like any of the delusional religious folk who venture into the world of rational thinking that is so profoundly alien to their minds. They skirt around any of the issues raised by rational analysis and rapidly revert to rabidly quoting their scripture as though it could be proof of anything. Oh the Qur'an tells of the Testaments before it as though one myth referrng to another affords some sort of credibility.

Just face it. Your religion is called a "faith" because it cannot sustain critical analysis. Don't waste your time trying to justify it in scientific terms because it doesn't have the substance to resist even a rudimentary review of its tenets.

Believe it if you will but don't expect any more respect than that afforded to other adults who believe in fairy tales.

 

[Galaxiom]

Somehow I doubt that "Look at what We did in fifty thousand years" would have had quite the impressive impact of the original six days in the Qu'rant or the B'bile.

 

[Brianwarnock]

I am a little concerned that this thread is very close to being personally abusive of Aziz.

As for criticism of him quoting the scriptures surely if a holy book is criticised then you would expect it to be quoted, and tho you may disagree with the explanations some were given.

Again inconsistencies, when was science totally consistent, many scientists disagree on many things, this doesn't mean that we should not point out the inconsistencies but we should avoid too much of a holier than thou attitude.

Just for the record I am a pragmatic agnostic, although since my wife died earlier this year I have wanted to believe in something but none of it holds up.

Brian

 

[aziz rasul]

same old get out clause

Why is it a get out clause? Why can you not be man\woman enough to accept an explanation and provide a more mature and meaningful critique rather than statements like this which in my opinion does not add up to an intelligent discussion.

The current version of the Torah (Arabic Taurat) is not the original and logically any reference to the creation of the universe would have been the same as the Qur'an. However those who changed the words in the Torah, who were unaware of the science at the time, chose to make these periods of time as earthly days and hence the hoohaa behind it. I have met some Christians who do now believe these 6 earthly days in the OT are longer periods of time. Jews, in my experience will not accept this.

There is no reference to 6 days in the NT.

As I have said already, the Qur'an is not the work of man but of God, but you are entitled to your opinion.

demonstrates he can't even manage single digit arithmetic to keep the story consistent.

If you look at my post, you will see that there are 6 periods not 8 as there is juxtaposition in one of the verses. I did explain this but again you do not give a sensible response by tackling what I am saying head on, but respond by saying

he can't even manage single digit arithmetic

which is not an intelligent answer. If you want to prove me wrong, then by all means do so, but there needs to some meaning behind what you say.

They skirt around any of the issues raised by rational analysis

I don't think I have skirted around anything. I have given a sensible answer to the verse, but you refuse to engage positively.

Just face it. Your religion is called a "faith" because it cannot sustain critical analysis. Don't waste your time trying to justify it in scientific terms because it doesn't have the substance to resist even a rudimentary review of its tenets.

But you have not done any critical analysis, if you had done we would get somewhere and come to some sort of conclusion. The example of 50,000 was to show that a Day in the Qur'an is not to be automatically be interpretated as an earthly day, although in most cases it does. Again you failed to grasp the purpose of providing this example.

Believe it if you will but don't expect any more respect than that afforded to other adults who believe in fairy tales.

Those whom Allaah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allaah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.
Qur’an - Surah al-An`aam (The Cattle) 6:125

Sorry to hear about your wife Brian. I hope, that one day you will find the truth. I'm always happy to help. I may not succeed but I will certainly try. In the meantime you can read my unpublished book if you wish at

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12953271/Islam-Pure-and-Simple

 

[Vassago]

Let's keep the debate at a non-personal insult level. We are above calling a specific member delusional. I would hate to have to close this thread because I find the discussion intriguing, but I don't think it's fair to insult another member either. That is not a way to debate.

OK: "Religious people are delusional."

 

[Dick7Access]

Let's keep the debate at a non-personal insult level. We are above calling a specific member delusional. I would hate to have to close this thread because I find the discussion intriguing, but I don't think it's fair to insult another member either. That is not a way to debate.

OK: "Religious people are delusional."

I agree 100%, except it is still already to say you are sinning because your not a sea food lover, Right????