Are you an atheist? (10 Viewers)

[Rabbie]

Which is what I was getting at all along.

Glad we are in agreement over something

I still think however that religion has been responsible for a lot of evil over the years. Good decent people will do things in the name of religion that they would not do under other circumstances. I am sure there was a religious motivation behind 9-11 if only because of the martyrdom card.

 

[Mike375]

But you still have not answered the main question. Why would god care whether we believe in him or not? Why would it matter to him?

My understanding is that God, while on one hand can create the universe also wants a close relationship with us. However, he wants us to make the decision and has given us the free will to reject him.

Yes, but god has "told" people all throughout history to murder, to ra**, to plunder, and so on and so forth. If you are brought up to completely submit to god's will, then clearly religion will lead you to immoral behaviour. Hence, religion causes good people to do bad things.

Where has God told people to "murder, to ra**, to plunder"

 

[Alisa]

Richard Dawkins makes the point in "The God Delusion" that God seems a bit obsessive that people believe in him. This belief seems to be much more importatant to him than their behavour.

Of course, since no-one has ever sat down and talked about this with god, it is not that HE is obsessive about it, it is that his BELIEVERS are obsessive about it. This is why I was attempting to make the point that it is awfully convenient to imagine a god to whom blind obedience is more important than moral action if what you are interested in is controlling people. It seems to me that someone who was instead interested in altruism and doing good deeds would instead have imagined a god to whom the most important thing was the goodness of your deeds.

Return to Santa for a minute. Why do we tell our children that Santa will bring them gifts if they are good? Could it be because we WANT them to be good? Likewise, religious leaders who tell their followers that god will let them into heaven if they just believe are telling them that because they WANT them to be obedient.

 

[Alisa]

My understanding is that God, while on one hand can create the universe also wants a close relationship with us. However, he wants us to make the decision and has given us the free will to reject him.

You still haven't answered the question. If our belief in him were so important to him, and if he is all powerful, then why wouldn't he MAKE us believe in him? Why would he leave it up to us to reject him? Could it be because he really doesn't exist?

Where has God told people to "murder, to ra**, to plunder"

Every religious war in history.

 

[Rich]

Where has God told people to "murder, to ra**, to plunder"

Judges 21:10-24

 

[Mike375]

Of course, since no-one has ever sat down and talked about this with god, it is not that HE is obsessive about it, it is that his BELIEVERS are obsessive about it. This is why I was attempting to make the point that it is awfully convenient to imagine a god to whom blind obedience is more important than moral action if what you are interested in is controlling people. It seems to me that someone who was instead interested in altruism and doing good deeds would instead have imagined a god to whom the most important thing was the goodness of your deeds.

You are still failing to grasp what submission to God brings to the table.

Let's try a reverse approach for you. If someone was to submit to bin Laden or Hitler would that then mean they would be helping little old ladies across the street.

It is in two parts

1) Belief and faith in God.
2) Submission to God.

 

[Alisa]

You are still failing to grasp what submission to God brings to the table.

You are stilling failing to make a reasonable argument.

Let's try a reverse approach for you. If someone was to submit to bin Laden or Hitler would that then mean they would be helping little old ladies across the street.

In their minds, the people who submit to bin Laden ARE submitting to the will of god.

 

[Mike375]

You still haven't answered the question. If our belief in him were so important to him, and if he is all powerful, then why wouldn't he MAKE us believe in him? Why would he leave it up to us to reject him? Could it be because he really doesn't exist?

If He made us believe and submit them there would be no faith. Above all he has provided us with the free will to reject Him but he hopes that we will believe and submit. Now as to the reasons He has chosen that way....I have no idea.

Every religious war in history.

Where did God say this.

 

[Alisa]

If He made us believe and submit them there would be no faith. Above all he has provided us with the free will to reject Him but he hopes that we will believe and submit. Now as to the reasons He has chosen that way....I have no idea.

If you have no idea WHY faith is so important to him, then how do you know that faith IS so important to him?

Where did God say this.

Well in my opinion, god has never said anything nor written anything. That is your side of the argument.

 

[Mike375]

Judges 21:10-24

But is God saying it.

And don't forget the normalisation.

 

[Alisa]

But is God saying it.

And don't forget the normalisation.

Either the bible is god's word or it isn't. You pick.

 

[Alc]

But is God saying it.

I thought the bible was 'the word of God'?
If it is and - just for argument's sake - everything in it isn't made up, then can't every part of it be taken as true?

 

[Mike375]

You are stilling failing to make a reasonable argument.

In their minds, the people who submit to bin Laden ARE submitting to the will of god.

Submitting to bin Laden is submitting to bin Laden. What about submitting to Hitler

It is very simple. if you submit then you follow what that person, god or whatever wants. if you don't follow what they want then there is no submission.

 

[Rich]

Where did God say this.

I've already given you one answer, do try and keep up

 

[Rich]

But is God saying it.
.

You mean the Bible is not the word of God?

 

[Mike375]

Either the bible is god's word or it isn't. You pick.

As far as I am aware the Bible is a mixture of God's word and stories/events that are related.

Peter for example denied Christ 3 times. That was not commanded by God.

 

[Alc]

I've already given you one answer, do try and keep up

Interesting link that one you posted, Rich.

 

[Alisa]

As far as I am aware the Bible is a mixture of God's word and stories/events that are related.

Peter for example denied Christ 3 times. That was not commanded by God.

I see, you get to pick which parts are god's word and which aren't. How convenient.

 

[Alc]

As far as I am aware the Bible is a mixture of God's word and stories/events that are related.

That's handy.

Let me guess - the bits that can be backed up with any kind of evidence come from the big man himself, and the rest are just made up? When I used to to go to Sunday school as a kid, they sort of gave me the impression that the whole thing could be taken as true.

 

[Mike375]

I've already given you one answer, do try and keep up

I just want confirmation that first, middle and lastname are in the customer record and for you to say why that is OK for normalising purposes.