Speak English

Rich said:
Yes it does because the alternative is a lynch mob driven along by an hysterical populace
Lynch Mob?
Hysterical Populance?

Damn, had I know you were just going to make s**t up out of the blue, akin to pulling it out your A#& I would have brought my PMS inflicted, sleep deprived, 13 your old daughter in to talk to you on your level.
:eek:
 
FoFa said:
Lynch Mob?
Hysterical Populance?

Damn, had I know you were just going to make s**t up out of the blue, akin to pulling it out your A#& I would have brought my PMS inflicted, sleep deprived, 13 your old daughter in to talk to you on your level.
:eek:
Well if it isn't a lynch mob mentality and if there is such a problem with Hispanics living on the border why does your government not do anything about it, or is it because that according to you the government serves no useful purpose anyway since it's all down to the individual?
You didn't answer my question regarding your DB by the way, and is your daughter right wing too?
 
pono1 said:
I recall going to a big grocery store near the Miami airport a few years ago where the produce was labelled in Spanish and, too, the checkout clerk asked for my money in Spanish.

Regards,
Tim
Go to Spanish Harlem in New York or the Spanish part of Soho (with your bodyguard). If you sneeze near to an older person they are more than likely to say bless you in Spanish. Because they are too superstitious to let it go and their English might not be that good. This of course is a generalisation but it does work quite well. :D
 
Rich said:
1 in 7 of the American population is Hispanic, in order to lay claim to the charge that they all live on benefits would mean that the entire unemployed of America are Hispanic.

You can't really generalize by that either. You have to differentiate between those of Hispanic origin who have chosen to become U.S. citizens and those who are in the country illegally. Those who become U.S. citizens are more likely to make an effort to assimilate and hold down decent jobs than those who are here illegally waiting for a handout. I don't know all the ins and outs of this argument which is why I haven't posted sooner, but I know you can't make a blanket statement like that. My husband's mother is of Mexican descent. Her parents (my husband's grandparents) moved to Texas from Mexico and didn't speak any English, or at least very little. But they became citizens and did their best to adjust to life here in the U.S., work, and raise their kids (all 13 of them, whew!) to the best of their ability. Their kids (mother-in-law included) all grew up speaking both Spanish and English and have been decent people. The ones who cross the border illegally and make no effort to adjust to our culture but want everyone else in the country to adjust to theirs are more likely to be the ones causing the majority of the problems discussed in this thread.
 
jsanders said:
Why do you suppose people in our country are advocating changing government documents to be in Spanish as well as English?

States are being sued for it, the general population disagrees with it, yet it continues.

Who are these people? Certainly, you would expect a more thought out response from the Hispanic intelligentsia, but they are some of the most ardent supporters. You would think the Spanish speaking politicians would get on a “learn English” band wagon, but none has materialized...


You might be interested in this link Mr. Sanders:

http://www.minutemanhq.com/hq/mmpledge.php I say get control of the borders.
 
Brianwarnock said:
despite welsh ancestory I cannot think what else Wales is noted for :rolleyes:

Brian


What about the Queen's Corgis (with docked tails)
 
dt01pqt said:
Go to Spanish Harlem in New York or the Spanish part of Soho (with your bodyguard)... If you sneeze near to an older person they are more than likely to say bless you in Spanish. Because they are too superstitious to let it go and their English might not be that good. This of course is a generalisation but it does work quite well. :D

Ah, yes -- I had a memorable, all English, sneezeless night in Soho once upon a time...

Regards,
Tim
 
have to wonder how much of singling out a specific race for this claim is actually warranted and how much is a myth perpetrated and fuelled by a populist right wing press.
Unfortunately, it is a single race that is causing most of the problem because those are the people who continue, at the rate of 3 million a year, to invade my country.

Believe me; I understand why they want to leave Mexico. And I sympathize. But, the reason that they come here instead of your country is proximity coupled with the fact that in my country, big business has our congress bamboozled into thinking that there is a labor shortage. You continually hear our great leader espousing the opinion that the jobs that the illegals take are the jobs that Americans won't take. What is NOT said is that real wages in the US are in a decline and the decline is fueled by the lowest end jobs filled by illegals at the bottom along with the high end jobs filled by cheap foreign labor (legal visas) in the high end jobs. There is a 10% unemployment rate among tech workers and yet our Congress is currently considering a bill to allow an additional 60,000 H1b visas to import more tech workers from low wage countries. Do you think the high unemployment is caused because Americans don’t know how to program or American programmers are unwilling to work for $60,000 per year, or because too many low wage workers are imported each year? I can relate stories from personal friends who where laid off from their jobs, not because the company was downsizing, not because they weren’t doing their jobs, but because their employer wanted to reduce its costs and so were replacing all existing employees with cheaper foreign labor. And to add insult to injury, they were forced to train their replacements to get their severance pay!!!! This is a big win for the company. They get competent workers (although unfamiliar with the business, it is cheap enough to hire several) who save them 60% on wages PLUS 100% on benefits!

Yes it is true, Americans don't want those jobs at the salary now being offered. Would you be willing to take a 60% wage cut along with a 100% benefits cut. I think not. If the jobs paid a living wage by American standards (after all, the workers have to "live" in America), Americans and legal immigrants would take them. They wouldn't need to resort to hiring illegals or importing cheap legal labor or exporting the jobs entirely. Not too many years ago, hotel housekeepers spoke English as did busboys and Burger King employees and the programmers who worked for me. So don’t tell me Americans wouldn’t take those jobs. This is resulting in growing unemployment among Americans and legal immigrants and continued exploitation of the illegals. It IS exploitation. Since they are illegal they have no recourse, no higher authority to complain to, little opportunity to change jobs. They can’t complain about working conditions. We are going back to the days when you owed your soul to the company store. Read John Steinbeck’s “The Grapes of Wrath” or Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle” to help you remember what life was like for the poorest Americans in the US in the early part of the 20th century.

We have a rapidly growing underclass of single Hispanic males. Since they are illegal, they are most likely separated from their families. Crime among them is increasing (no surprise here). They are not “living” here; they are “existing”; sending every spare penny home to support their families. This is a heart wrenching situation and it needs to be stopped. And speaking of the money they send home, it is the largest source of foreign exchange that Mexico has and amounts to some $20 billion each year. What does that tell you? It tells you that not only US big business but also the Mexican government has a vested interest in the status quo.

NAFTA which was heralded 10 years ago as the “answer” was supposed to help Mexican workers and the Mexican economy by enabling American companies to cheaply establish factories in Mexico. Instead, it depressed wages in Mexico further because there was so much competition for the jobs that wages dropped.

The rebuilding of New Orleans is another government fiasco. It frightens me to be on the same side of any argument as Jesse Jackson but I happen to agree that New Orleans should be rebuilt by former residents and local companies as much as possible. Instead, our great leader waived some federal law that required companies to pay prevailing wages in situations like this. They are also waiving any penalties for companies who hire illegals, not that any penalties would have been imposed anyway. This law was a way to prevent profiteering in disaster recovery. But it was repealed so instead of local workers and local companies getting the contracts for the cleanup and rebuilding, large non-local corporations were given no-bid contracts and are currently advertising in Mexico and other depressed countries for workers. This week in the news CNN was talking about 70 American electricians who were working on rebuilding a government installation who were let go and replaced with non-English speaking workers.

I don’t know what the answer is but it is NOT amnesty. We tried that already. It only encouraged more illegal immigration. I object to rewarding people who have broken the law. Plus, legalizing the 20,000,000 currently here also results in opening the door for millions more family members so the number could easily double.

I would very much like to save the world but realistically, I can’t. I do what I can. I contribute to charities, I volunteer my time but I am not willing to give up my life. It has to stop somewhere. We can only absorb so many immigrants at a time and at the moment we are being overrun. It is creating serious social issues. The American people are looking like the bad guys because we are finally standing up and objecting. I say enough is enough. We must secure our borders. I am very sorry to have to do this. Part of what made America is being lost in this action but to not do so ensures its loss also. Once the borders are secure, we can talk about a guest worker program and a gradual repatriation of all people here illegally. They cannot be rewarded for breaking the law. The law that fines companies for hiring illegals must be strengthened and enforced. It must cost a company as much to hire an illegal as it would to hire an American or legal immigrant.

Occasional ranting helps but I also regularly send emails to my representatives telling them where I stand. Do the rest of you do anything?
 
Yes thank you, I understand, we face the same problems here but obviously on a smaller scale, I did ask what the government was doing about it and you've now answered, nothing.
We're told by our glorious leader pretty much the same tripe, I don't wish ill of those seeking a better future but we simply don't have the room, the island's overcrowded now.
 
pono1 said:
Ah, yes -- I had a memorable, all English, sneezeless night in Soho once upon a time...

Regards,
Tim
Well I had a memorable, all English, sleepless night in Soho once upon a time too, just in a different country :D
 
I think Pat echoes the sentiments of most Americans.
One of the most important facts left out in Pats writings is the larger problem of the trade deficit with China. It’s not 20 billion per year it 600 billion.


The problem actually has several roots. Not all of which are political in nature. It started about 30 years ago when the international movement of money grew at an unprecedented rate. This was facilitated by the maturing of the major economic powerhouses like
Germany, Japan, and the US.

Once the western world had finished paying for WWII either by the end of reconstruction or the satisfaction of the debts, the increased world capital needed new places to go to realize the type of growth it had been experiencing since the end of the war. The only places where this kind of growth could be realized were in developing countries.

This started the massive redistribution of capital that created the growth in the Far East. Latin America was mostly left out of this investment due to corruption, and cultural issues.

Another factor in the decision to invest in China was to make them more western and by doing so, making it less likely they would rise up to start a global conflict. I’m not sure that will have the desired effect but that a discussion for another thread.

That’s the money side of it. Another major factor was that all this Latino corruption, and lack of investment, was exacerbated by high birth rate and improved life spans which created growth of population in excess of economic growth, making upward mobility an almost impossible dream.

This is the scenario we face now not from increased birth rate but because of immigration. Our population growth at the low end of the economic pool is really one of the biggest problems America faces over the next 25 years or so. If we don’t all get together and fix it now I think our future as one of the World's leading economies is in grave jeopardy.

The answer is clear. While we still have the financial might we should force the Latin American countries to clean up their acts, end corruption and make it safer to invest in their countries.

Once progress is made in this area we should invest heavily. This would do several things. First it would redirect resources to Latino countries improving their way of life and increasing employment. Second it would make it less attractive to migrate to the US. Given a choice people will work closer to home rather that farther.

Over time as the industrial base grows these countries will have developing markets for higher end American made products, such as airplanes, trains, and power plants.


Once the middle class starts to evolve they will come here as tourist bringing some of the money back.

The world will soon discover that the global economy is ravaging the middle class and that the standard the middle class is measured by will be averaged lower by the inclusion of so many workers willing to work at below living wages.

In short, the way I see it, is that eventually we will not be in a global economy as such, but more of a regional one. Where free trade between the major regions will be tariffed more than now, to protect workers within the regions.

The now nearly defunct European Union is the prototype of the economies of the 21st century. Once they have worked out the problems of balancing national pride with survival in the global trade circus, I think Europe will offer a model to emulate.

NAFTA or a derivation still has potential to accomplish this but in our current obsession with terrorism and “family values” there doesn’t seem to be the political will to make it flourish.

More on the actual language issue in my upcoming opinion.
 
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The problem is not that they're doing nothing. It is that they are actively working at cross purposes to what is ultimately good for the country. All we hear is "global economy this and global economy that". The bottom line is simply profit. As much as I am against war, I find it absolutely terrifying that our manufacturing base can't keep our soldiers in Iraq supplied with ammo. We need to import it from France. Our fabric and clothing industry is almost gone. I can't even find made in the US garments any more. If I need something new, I am forced to contribute to this madness. I flatly refuse to shop at Walmart. The shirts for our border patrol agents are made in Mexico! I went shopping for a new washer/dryer recently - I couldn't find any made in the US so I left. I'll limp along with my 15-year old ones for another year. We are rapidly building a middle class in China and India while pushing our own middle class into poverty.
 
jsanders makes a good point about Latin America. I was originally for NAFTA because it sounded like it would be good for development there.

The corruption in Latin America is peanuts compared to what we're seeing in China. They are ripping us off left and right. Copyright/shmoppyright. It doesn't stop them. Look what they did to Clinton's book. That made the news but we don't hear about all the other copyright infringments. Same thing with patents. If it's a good idea, they copy it. There will come a time in the not too distant future when China has strengthened its middle class sufficiently that they'll start nationalizing American assets. We'll still have to buy from them at least for the amount of time it would take to reestablish various industries here. But it won't matter because they still have their own people who can now afford the products they are making and they still have the rest of the world who will still need to buy from them.

Make an effort to buy American. Even if you can't, at least make the retail stores know you want to. Ask to see American made models first and leave a few stores if they don't have any. And stay away from Walmart.
 
Rich said:
Well I had a memorable, all English, sleepless night in Soho once upon a time too, just in a different country :D

That's a bit of a coinkydink.

Regards,
Tim
 
jsanders said:
While we still have the financial might we should force the Latin American countries to clean up their acts, end corruption and make it safer to invest in their countries.



.
Mmmmmmmmmm, you mean like your policy in Iraq, and as far as corruption goes isn't this a prime example of the kettle black pot maxim. Perhaps you should be cleaning up your own country first.
As far as the Chinese go I think you'll find that they are investing heavily in the US too.
And as for blaming everybody else for the fall in strength of the dollar it was the war in Nam that destroyed its strength, in fact it's now European and Far Eastern finance that funds your deficit. Of course it's in their interests to do so
 
jsanders said:
Over time as the industrial base grows these countries will have developing markets for higher end American made products, such as airplanes, trains, and power plants.
I'm afraid you'll have to face the fact that as far as reliability goes the Japanese have the march on all of us, you face a long uphill struggle with the fact that for years American companies have simply spent their profits on the good life instead of re-investing, Bush's attempt at banning imports of steel is a prime example of ineptitude and arrogance.
The EU proved that it's not just cheap labour that produces steel at lower prices than the US and reacted accordingly to Bush's attempt at protectionism.
If your industry is to survive it needs to compete on a global market and that means drastic improvements in efficiency, not neccessarily lower wages.
I suspect that Bush's incompetence and flavour with big business is allowing the cheaper option for his buddies via the black market.
I'm sure you can work out why ;)
As far as Minimum wage is concerned big business protested here that it would destroy jobs etc. the exact opposite has happened.
I'm also a little confused as to why you'd rather move the existing middle classes up a level rather than just increasing their numbers and thus creating a more level playing field.
As far as American products go I only have experience of one or two of them, years ago buying a pair of Levis made in the US was like stepping into cardboard, not any more, the last pair I bought was made in Morroco and didn't last any longer than the pair I bought cheaply in the local supermarket.
I'm not prepared to pay the asking price simply for a name that no longer stands for quality :mad:
 
I'm also a little confused as to why you'd rather move the existing middle classes up a level rather than just increasing their numbers and thus creating a more level playing field.




I think that it’s important that the middle class grows all over the world, the faster the better. My fear here is that the movement of capital is so rapid now days it seams that the non living wage working class is growing faster than the middle class.

As far as the other things on your post we all know all that stuff. Although there are still many things made in the US you don’t see in England. Our cars and trucks have come along way towards bridging the gap to Japanese made quality. And mostly all the cars we drive here are made here even if they have Japanese or in some European name plates. And of course Daimler owns Chrysler (And good for the company as far as I’m concerned)

The thing is we really need to do something about this lowering of wages around the globe. It affects Europe as much as America and many of the European countries are in as dire straights as we are. Germany has high unemployment partly a result of their liberal social policies but mostly because of cheaper labor from the former Soviet countries. I buy tool for my machine shop from China, but when I want to upgrade I buy Polish made stuff. I do have to admit though that the American made micrograin carbide cuttings tools are definitely the best. You just have to pay more for them.
 
You can't blame Germany's problems on liberal policies, it's far more complicated than that,
a/ it's paying a high price for re-unification and
b/ it's facing difficulties with adjusting to the global market, it's also not prepared to pay the price of adhering to the dogmatic single mindedness of the single currency.
Whilst we may be doing better it's only because the changes required were forced on us by depression.
Most of Europe also faces problems with former S.U. citizens working for lower wages than our equivalent
Now as for reliability of American products I've already mentioned elsewhere that I won't buy Dewalt products anymore
a/ they're just far too expensive and don't last, the last Dewalt Drill I had was on its last legs within a short space of time.
b/ They're an immediate target for thieves over here :mad:
After the last one I had got stolen I bought a Chinese made equivalent for £40, the Dewalt costs over £300 here. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the £40 drill to me makes far more sense economically. I suspect most consumers including those in the US are of the same opinion.
 
Rich said:
You can't blame Germany's problems on liberal policies, it's far more complicated than that,
a/ it's paying a high price for re-unification and
b/ it's facing difficulties with adjusting to the global market, it's also not prepared to pay the price of adhering to the dogmatic single mindedness of the single currency.
Whilst we may be doing better it's only because the changes required were forced on us by depression.
Most of Europe also faces problems with former S.U. citizens working for lower wages than our equivalent
Now as for reliability of American products I've already mentioned elsewhere that I won't buy Dewalt products anymore
a/ they're just far too expensive and don't last, the last Dewalt Drill I had was on its last legs within a short space of time.
b/ They're an immediate target for thieves over here :mad:
After the last one I had got stolen I bought a Chinese made equivalent for £40, the Dewalt costs over £300 here. It doesn't take a genius to work out that the £40 drill to me makes far more sense economically. I suspect most consumers including those in the US are of the same opinion.

Consumers here like to buy expensive tools but we pay less for them.
Your buying the wrong “American” tools first off DeWalt is made in China now.
Porter Cable, and Milwaukee are the two brands made tough in America. Mostly made for American Industry and construction trades.

I have 6 Porter Cable routers in the shop some of them are quite old. All of them are the same as the day they were bought, except for scratches and such.
 

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