The Qur'an

[aziz rasul]

Give us some specific things you regard as being corrupted that actually changes the meaning of the original text in a meaningful way.

I already gave you an indication. Look at the scientific verses e.g., 6 earthly days of creation rather than 6 periods of creation as the Qur'an states.

The fact that you mention the word 'meaningful' suggests you have already accepting that there is a problem with the Bible.

We don't have the original pristine Torah (given to Moses) and the Injeel (given to Jesus, which we don't have) so how can anyone show you the uncorrupted version. If the originals already existed, these would be the documents we would refer to, not the corrupted Torah. What you are saying makes no sense.

The Qur'an indeed says you have corrupted previous scripture as my last post showed.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The challenge is to create something out of nothing. Hence YOU are the one who is misguided.

Sorry, but you are wrong and in this case, the only requirement is an electrostatic field.

Schwinger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The pair comes into existence WITHOUT a prior boson. You were describing a PARTICLE DECAY event, not a pair production event. Stop trying to deflect the real-world truth.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

There is just no way any human will ever create life from non-living material and observe an accidental chain reaction of cellular replication without first starting with living cells.

You are asking too much for the time-scale of human experimentation. Current theory says it took a long time - hundreds of thousands or even a few millions of years. It is hard for a researcher to wait that long for an experiment to run. But here is a good description of the Miller-Urey experiment that created amino acids, the building blocks of our life.

Miller–Urey experiment - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Galaxiom]

Look at the scientific verses e.g., 6 earthly days of creation rather than 6 periods of creation as the Qur'an states.

Please don't mention science in your religious delusions. Science and religion are utterly unrelated.

 

[Galaxiom]

I didn't speak of the evolution of it, I spoke of the beginning of it.

I'm not talking about Darwinian Evolution but the evolution of the Universe itself.

It is amusing how you so desperately try to deflect from the reality that conflicts with your delusional beliefs.

Anything but consider that you have spent vast amounts of your life in pursuit of a promise of eternal life that will never be fulfilled. Sucker.

 

[aziz rasul]

Sorry, but you are wrong and in this case, the only requirement is an electrostatic field.

Sorry, but you are wrong and in this case, the requirement is to create a particle or similar without the AID of anything already existing be it an electric field etc.

 

[Mike Krailo]

In a world full of something, it's going to be real hard to put your hands on nothing.

 

[aziz rasul]

Please don't mention science in your religious delusions. Science and religion are utterly unrelated.

I have the right to express my opinions as a Muslim as I see fit and remain true to myself, much as you may dislike it or be deluded.
I will not be silenced about my beliefs.

In the meantime, here are some Qur'anic verses relating to science.

Verse 41:11, posted above, indicates a gaseous universe that existed in time past. The earth did not exist as a physical entity in the early universe.

It’s interesting to note that when God refers to the universe in the Qur’an, in the vast majority of cases (192 occasions) He uses the phrase ‘heavens and the earth’ or ‘heavens and on the earth’. In 41:11 the word heaven is not followed by the words ‘and [on] the earth’ as the early universe did not contain a physical Earth. Other verses where the word ‘heavens’ is used in isolation are 2:29, 3:5, 13:2, 17:95, 21:104, 23:86, 32:5, 40:37, 41:12, 67:3, 71:15 and 78:12.

By the heaven full of paths,
Qur’an - Surah az-Zaariyat (The Winnowing Winds) 51:7

15. So verily I call to witness the Planets (khunnas) that recede,
16. Go straight, or hide;
Qur’an - Surah at-Takwir (The Overthrowing) 81:15-16

“(God) is the One Who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion.”
Qur’an - Surah al-Anbiyaa (The Prophets) 21:33 See also 6:96-7, 7:54, 10:5, 14:33, 16:16, 36:40 and 39:5.

Seest thou not that Allaah merges Night into Day and he merges Day into Night; that He has subjected the sun, and the moon (to his Law), each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allaah is well-acquainted with all that ye do?
Qur’an - Surah Luqman (Luqman) 31:29

It is He who made the sun a shining light and the moon a derived light and determined for it phases - that you may know the number of years and account [of time]. Allaah has not created this except in truth. He details the signs for a people who know.
Qur’an 10:5

The Bible talks about the moon as producing light, which is incorrect.

 

[aziz rasul]

In a world full of something...

Hence, man is not able to do this. This is one of many challenges that God has given the disbelievers 14 centuries ago.

 

[Isaac]

Please don't mention science in your religious delusions. Science and religion are utterly unrelated.

You should study Blake Pascal a little bit. He has some great quotes about how mankind runs around trying to fill the void in their soul with various things but none of us really can unless it's with God because we were created to have a relationship with god. Most scientists were Christians up until recently

 

[Isaac]

If I come across a sand castle, I don't assume that it was created by another sandcastle. I realize something more intelligent than it created it. If I come across a bird's nest, I don't assume that it was created by another bird's nest that would be silly. Something greater and bigger and more intelligent than humans created humans. That's the obvious fact that can't be explained away no matter how many scientific mumbo jumbo things you quote to deflect... The only one who's attention you're deflecting is your own. It's called self deception

 

[aziz rasul]

Who is that directed to?

I have great respect for science that agrees with the Qur'an. Scientific laws itself were created by God.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Aziz,

Since you speak of the flawless Quran, I thought you might enjoy an article by someone who doesn't share your enthusiasm or opinion. He doesn't have the greatest skills in presentation, and English does not appear to be his primary language, but his arguments are surely interesting. And they expose a couple of basic flaws of the Quran. Don't tell ME that the Quran has no errors. Listen to the linked video. The same person has made several videos along the same vein. Like I said, don't blame ME for someone else's claims.

 

[Galaxiom]

If I come across a sand castle, I don't assume that it was created by another sandcastle. I realize something more intelligent than it created it. If I come across a bird's nest, I don't assume that it was created by another bird's nest that would be silly. Something greater and bigger and more intelligent than humans created humans. That's the obvious fact that can't be explained away no matter how many scientific mumbo jumbo things you quote to deflect... The only one who's attention you're deflecting is your own. It's called self deception

And your god, the most complex then possible, came from .........?

There is no law that says something more complex is required to cause something to exist.

Your inability to understand science does not make it wrong.

Religion is the mumbo jumbo and nobody is better deceived than the religious devotee.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

There is no law that says something more complex is required to cause something to exist.

The late Alan Turing discussed the natural incidence of complexity starting from non-complex origins.

Turing pattern - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This article should offer a starting point. The basic statement? Complexity can arise spontaneously through the interaction of natural forces.

 

[ebs17]

Nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What could "God" make from just hydrogen or prozones and neutrons and electrons?

Higher elements are only created through nuclear fusion, which takes place in suns over very long periods of time. Elements with higher atomic numbers than iron are only created through supernova explosions.

Everything that surrounds us and what we are made of is stardust, waste from stars that long ago had their own existence.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

What could "God" make from just hydrogen or prozones and neutrons and electrons?

Believe it or not, I actually have to do a "Devil's Advocate" here.

I have made my position clear and will not back away from my disbelief in "divine beings." I do not believe in the existence of God, Allah, Jehovah, and any other of the many deities that this planet's people have worshiped over the millennia.

Having said that, if we are going to discuss this with an eye towards the claimed omnipotence of these beings, the answer to the quoted question is "Anything he wants." The god of the believers (small "g" because I'm being generic for the moment) is reputedly able to create a whole universe. Why should we quibble about what that god could do with something since the premise is that the god can make things WITHOUT something? It is a misdirected argument.

My disbelief comes from the absurdity implied by omnipotence and the logical contradictions of an omnipotent god who can do anything but who CHOOSES to allow poverty, disease, crime, and hatred to run rampant on a beautiful paradise of a world that has been befouled by his own creations. This speaks of a being who is not an omnipotent benevolent god but rather is a petulant and uncaring child... like a child who played with his toys but then got bored with them. Are we like Woody and his friends from Toy Story?

The question I have is, if this proposed god is so powerful and so loving, why is he also totally absent? "Oh, you see him in his works," they say. I see a neglected world where the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing god has turned a blind eye to his creation and its inhabitants... who were ALSO his creation.

I see people saying "God will provide." Then I look at poverty and pandemics and pollution. I look at starvation. (At this point, I will interject that my wife and I choose to donate to charities that combat hunger. That's what WE have chosen to do.)

People say, "God preaches that we should love one another," and I agree it is a great ideal. But then I see hatred at a national level. I see mass killings in wars over territory. I see greed flourishing. I see human trafficking in war-torn regions and in poor regions.

I see misery from a world shepherded by an omnipotent - but totally absent - being. I see things that could EASILY be explained by saying "There is no god. All we see is based on more or less random actions powered by greed." And I wonder what it will take for the believers to pause long enough to ask the tough questions that would lead to TRUE enlightenment, to see the TRUE randomness of life in a world of stress.

 

[Pat Hartman]

I wonder if THAT is the "real" reason we no longer have dodo birds?

That was explained in the second best scene of "Ice Age", one of the best "children's" movies ever made. The best scene of course is the opening sequence chasing the acorn.

 

[ebs17]

@The_Doc_Man
I agree with every word you say.
Catholics fought and are fighting against Protestants, Sunnis fought and are fighting against Shiites, and the representatives of the "one God" always bless the weapons and the perpetrators. This absurdity can only be described as you did.

 

[Isaac]

Witnessed an amazing miracle of God today - in our congregation there was an elderly woman who had been battling stage 4 cancer, down to 88 pounds, the doctors had all agreed - there is nothing more we can do for you, you have a short while left to live.

She went into the office Friday and they said, it's a miracle, the cancer is totally gone.

Wow Praise God! He still does miracles like he did 2000 years ago and we see a lot of them which helps to encourage our faith