The Qur'an

[Isaac]

Isaac, I don't see why you guys have played aziz's game now for 397 replies! that's a long time my friend.

Maybe to demonstrate patience and cooler heads.

But dang, that might be a record , you got a point there

 

[Galaxiom]

Nah, it's pretty easy to tell, when you last many pages politely discoursing, then the convo degrades into "You idiot!" and stuff like that.
Same as I said to Galaxiom

Nothing at all to do with anger. Your indoctrination prevents you from realising how ridiculous your faith looks to a rational person.

 

[Mike Krailo]

Your indoctrination prevents you from realising how ridiculous your faith looks to a rational person.

Jesus said they hated him first, so it is expected they will also hate us. No one that is part of the family of God is trying to impress the world, we are more concerned about pleasing God for his glory. It's perfectly rational, only if you are aware of your spiritual nature (it's eternal). If you are not aware, it seems irrational to you. No one will force you on the ark. You are free to go on without God and live for yourself as the fallen one would love for you to do.

 

[Galaxiom]

we are more concerned about pleasing God for his glory.

The Hebrews pleased their God for His glory by perpetrating a series of brutal genocidal massacres on more than thirty tribes who were peacefully living in what the Hebrew leaders called "The Promised Land". They put the gold, siler and jewels from their victims in a box and worshipped it.

I want no part of the worship of your horrible deity who was first imagined by an insane man about to murder his son.

The churches continued the tradition of murdering for centuries and some devotees still do it today. Religion is an inheritable mental illness.

 

[aziz rasul]

Nah, it's pretty easy to tell...

I don't think you can tell anything as you believe in a triune God that Jesus and all the other Prophets didn't even teach. So forgive me, if I don't take anything you say or think seriously. You are just trying to stir up trouble as you don't have any anything serious or grown up to say.

I'll leave you with some Qur'anic verses to teach you about the teachings of Jesus.

We have sent you inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him. We sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.
Qur'an 4:163

And in their footsteps, We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him.
Qur'an 5:46

Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allaah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."
Qur'an 2:136

But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allaah?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allaah. We have believed in Allaah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].
Qur'an 3:52

Allaah will judge between you [all] on Judgment Day regarding your differences.
Qur'an 22:69

And if I'm not mistaken, why is Jesus shown as a sinner in the Bible? He isn't in the Qur'an.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

So forgive me, if I don't take anything you say or think seriously.

And yet you don't seem willing to forgive us. All you want to do is quote vapid verses vowing vile (and violent) venues as our final destinations. But then I've run across intransigent religious types before. I'm rather accustomed to it by now.

 

[Isaac]

Nothing at all to do with anger. Your indoctrination prevents you from realising how ridiculous your faith looks to a rational person.

Actually my faith teaches me exactly how it will look, so I understand that according to the Bible, to you it is "foolishness".
The foolishness of man is the wisdom of God.

Are you saying 2/3 of the world's population is irrational?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Are you saying 2/3 of the world's population is irrational?

G. might or might not say that, but I won't. I would use the word "misguided" and yes, a very large population group IS misguided. The extremely virulent religious types? David Koresh, Jim Jones, Claude Vorilhon (of Raelism)... THEY count as irrational. I don't count L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, as irrational. He did it because of the tax breaks associated with having your own religion. L. Ron was ALWAYS the shyster, ALWAYS trying to "game the system." No comments on the classification of his successor David Miscavige. Some levels of Looney Tunes are beyond my analysis skills.

 

[conception_native_0123]

Some levels of Looney Tunes are beyond my analysis skills.

does that include me richard?

He did it because of the tax breaks associated with having your own religion

is there any proof of that?

 

[The_Doc_Man]

@conception_native_0123

1. No, Adam, you have calmed down considerably and don't currently qualify as a top-level Looney Tune. I'm not sure you ever were when I consider and compare you to the Hare Krishna posts we had a few years ago.

2. Yes, actually there are some old writings on that subject.

L. Ron Hubbard Quotes (Author of Battlefield Earth)

99 quotes from L. Ron Hubbard: 'Ideas and not battles mark the forward progress of mankind.', 'When reading a book, be very certain that you never go past a word you do not fully understand. The only reason a person gives up a study or becomes confused or unable to learn is because he or she has...

www.goodreads.com

In particular:

“You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.”

“Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man wants to make a million dollars, the the best way would be to start his own religion.”

L. Ron Hubbard - Wikiquote

en.wikiquote.org

It is pretty clear that he was at least THINKING about founding his own religion. I don't know that he ever came out and said that was why he did what he did. He ostensibly stated it was as an alternative to psychotherapy. Which is not really so good either, since that meant he was targeting people who thought they were crazy and needed therapy. So he created a cult that would attract those in need.

 

[aziz rasul]

And yet you don't seem

I am quoting verses from God. Take it up with Him on the Day of Judgement. All the Prophets came as warner's and despite that you don't accept the truth , why complain. After all, you don't believe in God or Hell, so what's your issue?

Those who reject Faith and do wrong,- Allaah will not forgive them nor guide them to any way-
Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein for ever. And this to Allaah is easy.
O Mankind! The Messenger hath come to you in truth from Allaah: believe in him: It is best for you. But if ye reject Faith, to Allaah belong all things in the heavens and on earth: And Allaah is All-knowing, All-wise.
Qur’an - Surah an-Nisaa’ (The Women) 4:168-70

Indeed, Allaah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allaah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.
Qur'an 4:48

99. [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back
100. That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected.
Qur'an 2:99-100

That Day, those who disbelieved and disobeyed the Messenger will wish they could be covered by the earth. And they will not conceal from Allah a [single] statement.
Qur'an 4:42

Whoso desireth the harvest of the Hereafter, We give him increase in its harvest. And whoso desireth the harvest of the world, We give him thereof, and he hath no portion in the Hereafter.
Qur’an - Surah ash-Shura (Consultation) 42:20 See also 10:9-10, 10:25-30, 42:21-3, 42:36 and 59:18.

 

[Isaac]

Nothing at all to do with anger. Your indoctrination prevents you from realising how ridiculous your faith looks to a rational person.

There is nothing rational whatsoever in believing that all things in existence came from nothing by magic. Your faith in that requires a lot more faith than mine

 

[Galaxiom]

There is nothing rational whatsoever in believing that all things in existence came from nothing by magic. Your faith in that requires a lot more faith than mine

There is no magic involved in the scientific explanation of the evolution of the Universe. Every process from the first single pixel of intense amorphous energy through to what we see today all precisely follows the fundamental laws of Physics.

Your story is of a Universe that was created via incantation of magical spells in various forms of "let there be" by the most complex entity possible, that somehow already existed despite no explanation whatsoever for where or how it came about. The magical stories continue with people coming back to life, seas parting, walls falling when people march around blowing trumpets, impossible floods, people wandering around in the desert for forty years and living for hundreds of years. Of course none of this can happen any more, simply because that is God's inexplicable will. It is complete and utter nonsense that defies any rational assessment.

The sole source of these "explanations" was ancient men who presumed their personal prejudices and superstitions were truths given to them by an imaginary deity. You believe in it because you were indoctrinated before you had the capacity for rational thought. And you can't bear to consider the possibility of being wrong because you have invested so heavily in the idea that holding these beliefs would grant you eternal life.

 

[Isaac]

There is no magic involved in the scientific explanation of the evolution of the Universe

I didn't speak of the evolution of it, I spoke of the beginning of it.

 

[aziz rasul]

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth (meaning the universe) were (once) one single entity (ratq), which We (meaning God, the Creator) then parted asunder (fataqa) and We got every living thing out of water. Will they then not [begin to] believe?”
Qur’an - Surah al-Anbiyaa (The Prophets) 21:30 See also 6:73, 21:56, 24:45 and 25:54.

The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
Qur’an - Surah al-Baqara (The Heifer) 2:117 See also 35:1, 52:35, 59:24 and Psalm 19:1-3.

“The heaven, We have built it with (Our creative) power. Verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.”
Qur’an - Surah az-Zaariyat (The Winnowing Winds) 51:47 See also Jeremiah 10:12

Allaah also challenges the disbelievers to create out of nothing.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

Allaah also challenges the disbelievers to create out of nothing.

The experiment to observe "spontaneous pair production" has been done. But Allah's challenge is misguided. WE (humanity) aren't the origin of "create out of nothing." That is a natural event. Which, if Allah was so powerful, could prevent us from observing. Yet.. it has been observed. With no prayers beforehand, unless one of the researches said something like, "Jesus Christ, I hope this works." Does that count as an earnest prayer?

 

[Isaac]

These Koran verses...I mean gee, talk about derivative. They're all just paraphrases of the Bible.

 

[Mike Krailo]

G. might or might not say that, but I won't. I would use the word "misguided" and yes, a very large population group IS misguided. The extremely virulent religious types? David Koresh, Jim Jones, Claude Vorilhon (of Raelism)... THEY count as irrational. I don't count L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, as irrational. He did it because of the tax breaks associated with having your own religion. L. Ron was ALWAYS the shyster, ALWAYS trying to "game the system." No comments on the classification of his successor David Miscavige. Some levels of Looney Tunes are beyond my analysis skills.

I was very lucky not to get sucked into the Scientology cult. The carrot they dangle out there for you is very provocative because they claim to be able to get your spirit out of your body. I have met plenty of folks that achieved that, but it becomes like a drug and their church charges a ton of money to get their services and you get completely brain washed and drained of all money in the process of becoming what they call clear. And good luck getting out of the cult as there system is setup to drain you of everything you have financially and then due to all the personal secrets they get out of you from the auditing, they own you after that. At least L. Ron wasn't as ruthless as David Miscavige is, it has gone way down hill. I got a taste of it from an unauthorized source that was overseas at the time. I also got to look though his library of expensive books and most of it looks very plausible and enticing to be a part of, but the mind control techniques used are very powerful and can take down just about anyone unless you have a ton of money to begin with like Tom Cruise. If it wasn't lead by corrupt leaders who want to control you to the nth degree for their own personal power, it has a lot of good things in it, but I feel sorry for those that are trapped inside the close knit system they have created. Even the police are in on it in the places where the larger organization are.

The experiment to observe "spontaneous pair production" has been done.

And what happened after that pair production? Nothing. There are a lot of things they claim to have done in a sterile and highly controlled environment. That's called manipulation from a higher power. They never observed that occurring in good old primordial soup without first putting the soup together. Then the next stages of what must occur must be done with a high degree of precision in a very short period of time or there will never be any replication. How is this going to happen without outside manipulation? So there all sorts of papers that boast about different aspects of it, but it's a very long way from watching the current biological process of an animal replicating from cells into a living creature. That process is pretty darn fast, isn't it?

There is just no way any human will ever create life from non-living material and observe an accidental chain reaction of cellular replication without first starting with living cells. Any of them that tell you they can do anything remotely like that are the real shysters of science. If something happened without any guidance from any higher power, they why do they need to direct the process? Tough nut to crack when you cannot intervene in any way.

 

[aziz rasul]

The experiment to observe "spontaneous pair production" has been done....

Pair production is the creation of a subatomic particle and its antiparticle from a neutral boson.

The challenge is to create something out of nothing. Hence YOU are the one who is misguided.

These Koran verses...I mean gee, talk about derivative. They're all just paraphrases of the Bible.

The author of the Torah and Qur'an is Allaah and hence the parts of the Torah that has not been corrupted by the writers of Torah and has been preserved and will of course match with the preserved Qur'an.

Those parts of the Torah, which have been corrupted\changed, of course will NOT match e.g., scientific facts in the corrupted Torah are incorrect but not in the case of the Qur'an.

We verily gave Moses the Scripture and placed with him his brother Aaron as minister.
Qur’an - Surah al-Furqan (The Criterion) 25:35

No just estimate of Allaah do they make when they say: “Nothing doth Allaah send down to man (by way of revelation)” Say: “Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought? - a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers.” Say: “Allaah (sent it down)”: Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.
Qur’an - Surah al-An’aam (Cattle) 6:91

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allaah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allaah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allaah has revealed – then it is those who are the disbelievers.
Qur’an 5:44

Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allaah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?
Qur’an 2:75

But those of them [the Jews] who are firmly rooted in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what has been sent down to you and what was sent down before you.
Qur'an 4:162

 

[Mike Krailo]

The author of the Torah and Qur'an is Allaah and hence the parts of the Torah that has not been corrupted by the writers of Torah and has been preserved and will of course match with the preserved Qur'an.

Those parts of the Torah, which have been corrupted\changed, of course will NOT match e.g., scientific facts in the corrupted Torah are incorrect but not in the case of the Qur'an.

When you get a chance Aziz, do you mind showing us all exactly where this corruption is that you speak of. No generalization please. Give us some specific things you regard as being corrupted that actually changes the meaning of the original text in a meaningful way. If you do have something specific, then show us the un-corrupted version. The Quran says we have an uncorrupted bible, don't you trust the Quran?