Orlando Shootings

[Steve R.]

So what are the reasons that make people do it?

That is not really the appropriate question. People have been killing people for a variety of reasons for as long as "civilization" has existed. They will continue to do so in the future, for a variety of reasons.

What has changed is that world population is approaching 8 billion people, we have technological improvements, we have declining commitment to social values, and we have the rapid dissemination of news real-time. All these factors make bad news a quick and in-your-face reality. Additionally, there is a whole cadre of pundits ready to pounce on any "bad' story to psychoanalyze it.

Furthermore, in the proverbial old days, social misfits where subject to controls that today are deemed immoral and/or impractical. For example, immediate execution or banishing someone into the wilderness. The inability to implement these old solutions in today's society means that society is stuck with the social misfits and the consequences of any bad behaviour that they may exhibit.

PS: In 1940 the world population was estimated around 2 billion. In that time period we had three world leaders (Hitler, Stalin, and Mao Zedong) who were mass murders. Today, the world population is estimated around 8 billion. That would imply that we should have at least 12 world leaders today who are mass murders. Obviously, this is an unrealistic and an extreme over-the-top projection but it is something to consider.

 

[Mark_]

We are talking about the US insanity brigade that decide on mass killings.

Based on population and cultural demographics, you would be best to compare the United States to the EU. Plenty of insanity to go around in both areas. Likewise in both areas there are varied legal and cultural rules that directly affect how these horrible events unfold and are reported on.

 

[ColinEssex]

Based on population and cultural demographics, you would be best to compare the United States to the EU. Plenty of insanity to go around in both areas. Likewise in both areas there are varied legal and cultural rules that directly affect how these horrible events unfold and are reported on.

Yet again, neatly sidestepped my queries, and diverted the thread to another area. I'm too tired and bored with these forums to ask you again.

I wonder if you ever answered questions in exams. . . . , somehow I think you made up your own questions and answered them. Maybe you should be in politics.

Col

 

[Mark_]

@ Colin,

Maybe if you learned to read ENGLISH and phrase questions better, you would get better answers. You started with

I think religious brainwashing is a totally different ball game.

As such you discount religion in this conversation.

If you are unable to stop visually inspecting your colon long enough to think through a post please stop posting. When you broadcast your total ignorance of a multi-cultural society that has over 350 million people by asking silly questions I'm oft to discount your ramblings as those of the willfully ignorant.

Now if can even begin to understand that the "United States" has as many different cultural and ethnic divisions as ALL OF EUROPE you can begin to to grasp just how pathetic your posts sound.

Now I'm wondering if you ever were given an exam where the most difficult question was other than "What is two plus two".

 

[ColinEssex]

Yes, I can see the difficulty you have with the questions "so what are the reasons that make people do it", and "is it the 15 minutes of fame".

I shall try to make them easier in the future, I keep forgetting English is not your first language.

Still, if you can't manage to answer, or if you need clarification, just ask. Always happy to help the colonials whilst they struggle along.

Col

 

[Mark_]

Colin, you seem to keep forgetting that my original posts regarding Nicholas are that he is mentally ill and should never have had access to a firearm, let alone free run of a school that he was expelled from. We ARE talking about the Orlando shooting, not all cases where firearms are used. If you wonder about that, please look at the title of this thread and the beginning posts. I'd expect anyone with a secondary or pre-secondary education to be able to grasp that, how ever I will be willing to help you if your having issues with this.

Now since you can't seem to remember much or are too lazy to read back through this thread, the answer to your "Why did he do this" would be "He is mentally disturbed". Not sure if you can grasp that concept or not. You may just want to check with a mental health expert to see if they can explain it to you. They may have some other questions for you as well.

Now why I am saying trying to compare the United States to smaller countries when asking question about these types of tragedies IS because insular individuals from small political units have a very difficult time grasping just how large and populous the United States is. If you have trouble with that, I'd suggest you get a good English teacher to help you with the larger words.

 

[ColinEssex]

Now if can even begin to understand that the "United States" has as many different cultural and ethnic divisions as ALL OF EUROPE you can begin to to grasp just how pathetic your posts sound.

It's interesting that you're bordering on blaming the multi cultural element. Not too sure how blaming a failed immigration policy can make serial killing justifiable though.

Geography lesson:- Europe is made up of many different countries, it is not a country in its own right. The USA is one country.

Col

 

[Mark_]

@ Colin,

Please get back to the shooter at Orlando. Not justifying his actions. He's mentally unhinged. You may recognize the symptoms. I've posted that the state of Florida failed in addressing his issues. He did not immigrate to Florida.

Geography lesson would be "The United States" is the "United" and "States". Unlike many other "Countries", the United States has sovereign states in a Republic. Hence why a State can enact laws contrary to Federal law. One of these days you may wish to learn about different governmental types. Fascinating topic. Course that would require you to also begin paying attention to other world views other than your own, so I am not sure it is something you would be comfortable with.

 

[ColinEssex]

@ Colin,

Please get back to the shooter at Orlando. Not justifying his actions. He's mentally unhinged. You may recognize the symptoms. I've posted that the state of Florida failed in addressing his issues. He did not immigrate to Florida.

Geography lesson would be "The United States" is the "United" and "States". Unlike many other "Countries", the United States has sovereign states in a Republic. Hence why a State can enact laws contrary to Federal law. One of these days you may wish to learn about different governmental types. Fascinating topic. Course that would require you to also begin paying attention to other world views other than your own, so I am not sure it is something you would be comfortable with.

Ok, I agree that the Orlando shooter and probably the majority of other serial killers are mentally unhinged as you put it.

Re the geography lesson, it begs the question, why bother with a president and federal laws if individual states can change or ignore them? Why not have 50 different little countries?

Col

 

[Mark_]

Having experienced the problems with the English Monarchy, the United States decided that such excess and deliberate suppression of the common people should never occur again. Not surprising you'd not hear about it. It is also part of why the founders of the United States decided that disarming the populace would be something they would never stand for. Do remember that it was an armed colonial populace that demonstrated just how hard it is to repress a people when they have a way to resist.

 

[ColinEssex]

So what you're saying is that if Trump says he's going to build a wall along the Texas border with Mexico, Texas can say no?

Col

 

[Mark_]

U.S.C. Article 1 Section 9 item 7
No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.

Trump could build a wall with his own money. Only congress can appropriate funds for a Federally financed wall. You would be best served by spending some time learning HOW other governments work so that you can understand what abilities a given political position holds. Remember, some would believe the Queen could have you killed if she didn't like you.

 

[ColinEssex]

It seems to me that any system of government that holds presidential elections and the one with the lowest number of votes from the populace wins, must be weird.

Anyway, back to Orlando shootings.

The mass rallies and protests that it sparked off. Do you think they will have any effect on anybody or anything?

Col

 

[Steve R.]

It seems to me that any system of government that holds presidential elections and the one with the lowest number of votes from the populace wins, must be weird.

Please read-up on the Electoral College. The US is technically not a democracy. It is supposed to be a republic. But over the years that distinction has been evaporating. The US has been slowly creeping towards more mob based rule otherwise known as democracy.

Furthermore, the selection of the United Kingdom's Prime Minister is not based on the popular vote either. So your concern over how the US President is selected seems a bit misplaced.

 

[The_Doc_Man]

The mass rallies and protests that it sparked off. Do you think they will have any effect on anybody or anything?

That's actually a very fair question. My personal opinion is, not right away. Our system is designed to keep us from rash action unless it is also IMMEDIATELY and OBVIOUSLY necessary to a wide range of (congressional) people.

Case in point: The declaration of war after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Hawaii in 1941 was a next-day decision of Congress. And yes, that is an example from over 75 years ago because there are so few cases that meet my stated criteria. That's because a true consensus of that magnitude is incredibly rare.

To the point of your question, I believe that these protesters, particularly those who are still of what we call "secondary school" age, will influence a lot of people, but the REAL effect will be four to eight years from now, when that lot becomes voting age. Right now, the politicians can still discount them. But if they reach the voting booth, there will be no more discounting and a lot fewer debates. They will become a voting bloc of considerable fervor and as such will be "a force to be reckoned with" as the phrase goes.

That's my take on it, Col. Hope it was clear enough.

 

[Steve R.]

Simply focusing on eliminating guns deemed inappropriate in today's society will not address the mental/social issues that individuals face in today's society. Nor will will it make the government/bureaucracy act in a responsible manner.

Link between mass shooters, absent fathers ignored by anti-gun activists


Comment from OlvieTrumpet.

"Feminized modern society has downplayed time and again the importance of men in the family. The government and courts have not helped much with all of their programs that "reward" single mothers if they destroy the family. The education system spews out garbage like "toxic masculinity" on ever younger children and men in the media are often portrayed as complete idiots or just evil. Chateau Heartiste, IIRC, posted a point that 26 of the 27 biggest mass shooters in US modern history came from single mother households. Society needs to at least begin acknowledging that men are indeed important in children's lives."

Those on the political left will never acknowledge that their policies of "helping' people may have negative unintended effects.

 

[Mark_]

@ Steve,

Down side of politics stepping farther and farther away from individual accountability. If you try to hold someone with a "Disability" or "Minority status" accountable your are crucified in the court of public opinion. Better to simply ban anything that could be an influence rather than ask each person to do what is proper.

By blaming the weapon, you can excuse the massive systemic failure in the State of Florida. You can ignore a system that did not address the behaviors of an angry "Orphan" and politicians can divert attention away from their failure.

The children that today are walking out of class are doing so because they have a system that is protecting itself and using them. Some of the students have figured this out. Others see this as a chance to have their moment of fame and glory and don't care that they stand on the dead bodies of their class mates to have it.

 

[scott-atkinson]

The 2nd Amendment is an outdated piece of legislation and needs to be overhauled..

The Right to bear arms was written over a hunderd years ago when the gun of the day was a lead shot musket, that fired about 4 rounds a minute if you quick at reloading it..

I'm pretty sure the 2nd Amendment was not written at the time to take into account Assault Rifles that fire 60 rounds a minute...

Outdated and needs to be reworked, but never will be whilst the Politians are in the pockets of the NRA..

 

[Mark_]

The 2nd Amendment is an outdated piece of legislation and needs to be overhauled..

The Right to bear arms was written over a hunderd years ago when the gun of the day was a lead shot musket, that fired about 4 rounds a minute if you quick at reloading it..

I'm pretty sure the 2nd Amendment was not written at the time to take into account Assault Rifles that fire 60 rounds a minute...

Outdated and needs to be reworked, but never will be whilst the Politians are in the pockets of the NRA..

The founding fathers were very familiar with repeating arms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle

Now they never envisioned a system by which their printed words would appear magically before another, so your logic would best be used to rework that outdated 1st amendment. Course to do so properly you'd need to find a local print shop capable of producing your pamphlets for distribution.

For the true topic, we do have very disturbed people who commit horrid acts. This is not new. Telling those who are law abiding that you believe they should have their rights curtailed because you lack extensive knowledge on the topic does not help address how to identify and help those who are not mentally sound. It also focuses on a rather benign issue compared to the multitude of other ways that people kill one another.

 

[Steve R.]

The 2nd Amendment is an outdated piece of legislation and needs to be overhauled..

The Right to bear arms was written over a hunderd years ago when the gun of the day was a lead shot musket, that fired about 4 rounds a minute if you quick at reloading it..

I'm pretty sure the 2nd Amendment was not written at the time to take into account Assault Rifles that fire 60 rounds a minute...

Outdated and needs to be reworked, but never will be whilst the Politians are in the pockets of the NRA..

When the 2nd Amendment was adopted, few envisioned a future US that promotes welfare, vilifies white males, glories single mothers, considers certain free speech to be hate speech, and bastardizes Christian values. The progressive left needs to consider the possibility that their proposed social engineering has negative unintended social consequences that allows for a negative mental health climate, which may be acted-out through a mass murder event. A very deplorable situation.

PS: Some on the progressive left even believe that it is perfectly acceptable to physically attack a person that they disagree with under the guise of "self-defense" since that person will obviously be invoking "hate speech". Given that some on the left desire to use physical force to impose their political will, those (on the right) with guns may be reluctant to give them up.