Tipping

[wazz]

don't eat at a restaurant?

I don't know what the situation is in other countries - or potentially in other states even - but in Illinois people with jobs that are customarily tipped, such as waiters and bartenders, have a legal minimum wage lower than non-tipped employees. The minumum wage for most employees is about $6 an hour; for waitstaff, it is $3.09 an hour. That's less than $125 a week working 40 hours. The reason you are supposed to automatically tip is because a living wage for your server is not built into the price of your meal. If your server is awful, you have the power to affect their ability to make a living. If they are good, they deserve to be supported. If they are great and improve your dining experience (help fix a problem, make an excellent recommendation, etc.) then they deserve to be rewarded. Don't like that? Then don't eat at a restaurant.

this boggles my mind a bit. at first i thought, oh, finally a good reason as to why we should tip. but, on second thought it seems ludicrous.

how can there be a legal double standard regarding how employees are paid? a company prices its products so that it can cover its costs and pay its employees to live. how can there be a different standard for "jobs that are customarily tipped" when there is no guarantee in place that they will be tipped? what are those jobs? is there an actual (legal) list of jobs in this category?

tipping is voluntary. if someone doesn't want to tip - or can't - they won't. if people working jobs that are customarily tipped don't like that, they should get the law changed...or get used to it.

and i'll eat at a restaurant if i want to, even after the prices go up because the staff is being properly paid.

----------------------------------------

different cultures definitely do feel differently about tipping.

here in malaysia, there is no tipping. people do not tip. there is no history of it amongst locals. it seems genuinely bizarre to locals. you have paid the price (or even haggled the price) that the seller asked, now, why would you tip?? the only people who tip are expats.

i still find it hard not to, and in fact i still do sometimes tip. but i changed my attitude (more) when i found out that taxis will drive past locals (who might have been waiting longer) in order to pick up a foreigner because they think they might be tipped. service in restaurants can be better (noticeable more to the local) if a tip is expected. (this applies everywhere, i think).

you might ask yourself how you feel when someone else is served first or is treated differently because they have money.

people (anywhere) can feel hurt or isolated when they are treated differently, when the reason is money or for any reason. a shift in the overall balance of things can be felt. it's strange and subtle.

tipping in japan is a big no-no. i didn't know that until i was practically chased down as i was leaving a small family-owned restaurant. they were telling me i should not tip and were trying to give me back my tip. i didn't know it but it can be insulting: they don't need a handout.

 

[Kraj]

how can there be a legal double standard regarding how employees are paid?

It probably came about because restaurants didn't feel they should have to pay minimum wage if their employees are bringing in additional money via tips. But the official rationale is that tipping puts control of the service in the hands of the customer. I've already explained how in my previous post. I can't say I agree with the system, necessarily, but it's not 100% wrong or stupid either.

tipping is voluntary. if someone doesn't want to tip - or can't - they won't. if people working jobs that are customarily tipped don't like that, they should get the law changed...or get used to it.

If you don't like feeling obligated to tip, why don't you get the law changed? People known for having political clout generally aren't waiting tables or working minimum-wage jobs. If it was an easy matter to get the law changed, it would be. Additionally, disagreeing with the system is no good reason to punish those working the jobs. And if you are aware that tipping is customary for a certain service then you should either tip for that service or do not accept the service.

 

[chef_tim]

I'll also point out that Wait staff are taxed on their sales. In my state it is 8% of your sales. That way the government get's there share of a median wage from them. Tim

 

[Kraj]

Good point. That also reminded me that at many restaurants the waitstaff gives a portion of their tips to the bussers, bartenders and even kitchen staff and hosts, which further dilutes their take-home pay.

 

[wazz]

It probably came about because restaurants didn't feel they should have to pay minimum wage if their employees are bringing in additional money via tips.

that's probably true. (?)

But the official rationale is that tipping puts control of the service in the hands of the customer. I've already explained how in my previous post.

that's an interesting idea, but, first of all, why not keep control of the service in the hands of the employer who can fire someone who isn't doing a good job? secondly, we will always maintain some control of the service by complaining and/or not going back to the restaurant.

I can't say I agree with the system, necessarily, but it's not 100% wrong or stupid either.

i can see that it's an outgrowth of naturally occuring events (like tipping...), and because of that it's not 100% wrong.

If you don't like feeling obligated to tip, why don't you get the law changed?

i was about to come back at you pretty hard, but then i realized you are right. we should all be trying to change that law.

the fact is, i think, that we both agree the law is wrong. the law says it's ok to pay someone less. there are no guarantees that tipped workers will be tipped, are there? then that law we are talking about legally (i) allows employers to pay someone less and (ii) attempts to obligate one to give tips. people have different outlooks and beliefs. how can i obligate you to do something you don't want to do or can't do? just pay them the same amount and if i want to tip, i will.

...disagreeing with the system is no good reason to punish those working the jobs.

the risk of punishment to the worker was created by that law, not by anything you or i did. i think we are both tippers. consider this: if you and i are the only customers in a restaurant for a month, do you think we will have tipped enough to give the waiter a decent living?

And if you are aware that tipping is customary for a certain service then you should either tip for that service or do not accept the service.

point taken.

 

[Rich]

Deposit. Hmmmm depends

If it is a small company and there is a fair amount of purchase element then deposit and lets see the "Purchase" content delivered to site.

Did this sort of deal when kitchen was done. Up front deposit and a load of Units and bits delivered.

Larger company with samll purchase element of the contract then maybe stage payments against agreed milestones but not in advance.

See I am reasonable some of the time.

L

I always want a deposit and stage payments when required, why should I spend my money on customers goods, and why should I not receive a regular wage ? As for discount for cash, why should I, I can't get the goods any cheaper for cash, why should my labour be cheaper therefore ?

 

[ColinEssex]

If they are good, they deserve to be supported. If they are great and improve your dining experience (help fix a problem, make an excellent recommendation, etc.) then they deserve to be rewarded.

That is what they're there for, its their job - why reward someone for doing their job. As I said before, if they think its low paid then get a better job. If they are good, I'll go back there and recommend them to friends.

Don't like that? Then don't eat at a restaurant.

Restaurants are there to serve food to customers - I am a customer, I go there for the quality of the food, atmosphere etc. Not to give money away, restaurants charge enough in the UK anyway. Unfortunately, you're not allowed to smoke now in restaurants - thanks to the do-gooder brigade

waitstaff gives a portion of their tips to the bussers, bartenders and even kitchen staff and hosts

what on earth is a "busser"?

Col

 

[ColinEssex]

I always want a deposit and stage payments when required, why should I spend my money on customers goods, and why should I not receive a regular wage ? As for discount for cash, why should I, I can't get the goods any cheaper for cash, why should my labour be cheaper therefore ?

The company that did our back garden is a long established company of good standing in the North Essex / Suffolk area. I have no idea why they knocked off a bit for cash. . . . . .I was just trying my luck I was quite happy with the original quote which included VAT, we had some work done by them a few years ago on the front garden so I knew that giving a deposit up-front was ok.

Col

 

[Len Boorman]

Rich

No doubt you are a reputable organisation but generally the public are concerned that a payment schedule that gets in advance of the work completed can lead to the organisation becomming dis-interested in finally completing the contract.

Not for a moment suggesting that you would be in this bracket of course but it does happen.

Being in business for yourself brings with it matters associated with cash flow and these you either accept or reject. That's your decision.

I would pay up front for purchased items delivered to site and stage payments against milestones. But I would not allow payments to lead the work completed.

Len

 

[wazz]

bussers = bus-boys/girls. set up and clear tables as opposed to take orders.

 

[ColinEssex]

bussers = bus-boys/girls. set up and clear tables as opposed to take orders.

Never heard of it - the waiters/waitresses do it in the UK

Col

 

[Rich]

Rich

No doubt you are a reputable organisation but generally the public are concerned that a payment schedule that gets in advance of the work completed can lead to the organisation becomming dis-interested in finally completing the contract.

Not for a moment suggesting that you would be in this bracket of course but it does happen.

Being in business for yourself brings with it matters associated with cash flow and these you either accept or reject. That's your decision.

I would pay up front for purchased items delivered to site and stage payments against milestones. But I would not allow payments to lead the work completed.

Len

You haven't seen the flip side Len, if my customer won't pay for the goods up front then they have two choices, either go and get the goods themselves and pay the full price or get somebody else. It's all about faith, customers either have faith in their tradesman or they don't. All these rogue trader programmes never show the flip side, I've been caught too many times, if a customer's not prepared to pay a deposit I don't want the job. It's nothing really to do with cash flow I'm just not prepared to write off large sums of money any more because the customer never had any intention of paying in the first place, been there, done that, got the certificate.

 

[Len Boorman]

You haven't seen the flip side Len, if my customer won't pay for the goods up front then they have two choices, either go and get the goods themselves and pay the full price or get somebody else. It's all about faith, customers either have faith in their tradesman or they don't. All these rogue trader programmes never show the flip side, I've been caught too many times, if a customer's not prepared to pay a deposit I don't want the job. It's nothing really to do with cash flow I'm just not prepared to write off large sums of money any more because the customer never had any intention of paying in the first place, been there, done that, got the certificate.

Yup see your point but the flip side is also that customers have been done by the rogue trader. So here we have a situation that is not unusual in that the innocent pay the price of the actions of the rogues.

Trust and faith yes I agree. When I have certain tasks to be done I ask generally a single person for a ball park figure, If thats within my budget they are told okay do it and invoice me the correct fair price based on how long the job actually took. That comes about as a result of a trust relationship being built by both parties.

Len

 

[Kraj]

consider this: if you and i are the only customers in a restaurant for a month, do you think we will have tipped enough to give the waiter a decent living?

I pretty much agree wiht everything you say. I'm not sure what you're getting at with this question, though. The answer is obvious, but at the same token the restaurant won't survive at all on two customers a month. The waitstaff won't have a job at all much less a make a decent wage.

That is what they're there for, its their job - why reward someone for doing their job. As I said before, if they think its low paid then get a better job. If they are good, I'll go back there and recommend them to friends.

Colin, I realize that in the UK the law is such that tipped employees are paid the same minimum wage and therefore I agree with your persepctive, to a degree. As I have explained before, my comments are from the U.S. perspective, where tipped employees are paid less. Are the comments you make in response to mine coming from the UK or US perspective?

Restaurants are there to serve food to customers - I am a customer, I go there for the quality of the food, atmosphere etc.

Interestingly enough, a major part of the restaurant experience that you regulated to "etc." status is the service. As I said before: feel free to disagree with the practice, but if you are aware a service comes with the expectation of a tip and you accept that service, you should tip. Otherwise, don't accept the service.

 

[lmnop7854]

I think sometimes we lose sight of the reason for the "tip" -- IMHO, I think it is extra, for someone going the extra mile. So rather than me telling their boss that they were exceptional, which wouldn't get them any extra money, I tip them.

Colin says that is their job - to serve. True, but all that amounts to is putting the food down in front of you, and getting it right. That doesn't mean they have to be friendly, or helpful. Consider the people around you that you work with. Although they don't get tipped, it is their job to provide a service, but I bet they get extra kudos on their yealry evaluations if they are helpful, and friendly, and get along with their co-workers, and go the extra mile. Kind of the same thing as a tip - a little extra when the raises come around (as measly as they can be).

So I tip when I get more than I planned to get from the service. So I really don't agree that if I accept the service I need to tip. If I accept the service, and yet the person was rude and neglected me without an explanation, then I feel no compulsion to tip them. They didn't do anything to enhance my dining experience.

Lisa

 

[Kraj]

If I accept the service, and yet the person was rude and neglected me without an explanation, then I feel no compulsion to tip them. They didn't do anything to enhance my dining experience.

Lisa

Which is exactly why the tip is still discretionary. If bad service deserved a good tip, then the tip would simply always be added to the bill.

 

[ColinEssex]

Colin, I realize that in the UK the law is such that tipped employees are paid the same minimum wage and therefore I agree with your persepctive, to a degree. As I have explained before, my comments are from the U.S. perspective, where tipped employees are paid less. Are the comments you make in response to mine coming from the UK or US perspective?

The perspective is mine - what happens in the US is peculiar to the US. People are paid to do a job - full stop. Nurses save lives - no tips. Firemen save people - no tips. I do my job - no tips. Why tip someone for putting a plate of food down and doing their job by being nice to customers? its not rocket science. If they don't like it - thats tough

Interestingly enough, a major part of the restaurant experience that you regulated to "etc." status is the service. As I said before: feel free to disagree with the practice, but if you are aware a service comes with the expectation of a tip and you accept that service, you should tip. Otherwise, don't accept the service.

I thought tipping was a voluntary thing - why should service come with the expectation of a tip? they can expect all they like - just like I can expect a payrise - I know I'll not get one

Col

 

[Kraj]

The perspective is mine

Ah, in that case there's no need to continue any discussion.

 

[KenHigg]

... Unfortunately, you're not allowed to smoke now in restaurants - thanks to the do-gooder brigade

I'm guessing you feel it should be up to each establishment whether they allow smoking or not and should not be a local ordinance?

 

[Rich]

I'm guessing you feel it should be up to each establishment whether they allow smoking or not and should not be a local ordinance?

Absolutely, I'm confused, isn't it against one of your constitution freedoms to ban people from smoking