God is Evil

[oumahexi]

No I'm not getting racism and bigotry confused and the two terms are certainly not mutually exclusive.

Oh, I think they are. I can have my intolerances against someone who is, for instance, of a black race, but not because they are black because they are English and I don't like the English (disclaimer, this is not necesarily the view of the writer ) and the black person happens to have been born in England, or even because they are Catholic and I'm an Orange man. But then I could also have a black Irish friend who is Orange, no racism there, we're both biggots...

Personally, I don't think Colin is either, I think he falls in the category of Devils Advocate, you gotta love him, he's cute

 

[Mike375]

I saw the definitions you listed including a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

Even including the above does not mean a country is a race. Come to Australia and see if you think everyone is united by shared interests, habits, or characteristics Some of the people here from the Middle East might argue with you.

Country is used to describe someone but not for race. It could be to indicate time zones, money used, what laws they operate under etc and etc.

 

[Rich]

Your just making this up as you go along.

No I'm using the definitions you posted

 

[oumahexi]

Your just making this up as you go along.

So does that make Rich Evil

 

[chergh]

No I'm using the definitions you posted

Then you haven't understood them.

 

[chergh]

Oh, I think they are. I can have my intolerances against someone who is, for instance, of a black race, but not because they are black because they are English and I don't like the English (disclaimer, this is not necesarily the view of the writer ) and the black person happens to have been born in England, or even because they are Catholic and I'm an Orange man. But then I could also have a black Irish friend who is Orange, no racism there, we're both biggots...

Personally, I don't think Colin is either, I think he falls in the category of Devils Advocate, you gotta love him, he's cute

yes but you could dislike someone for because of their race and because of their religion. In this circumstance they would be bopth bigoted and racist i.e. the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[chergh]

I saw the definitions you listed including a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics

Even including the above does not mean a country is a race. Come to Australia and see if you think everyone is united by shared interests, habits, or characteristics Some of the people here from the Middle East might argue with you.

Country is used to describe someone but not for race. It could be to indicate time zones, money used, what laws they operate under etc and etc.

Nationality is not necessarily a race but my point is that it can be. Colin certainly defines Americans as having shared interests and characteristics, such as arrogance and shooting for example, this is the crux of my argument and why I call colin a racist.

 

[oumahexi]

Nationality is not necessarily a race but my point is that it can be. Colin certainly defines Americans as having shared interests and characteristics, such as arrogance and shooting for example, this is the crux of my argument and why I call colin a racist.

race

• noun: each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics

I still say our Colin is much more of a treasured little bigot than a scary old racist He is not stupid, he knows the US is every bit as cosmopolitan as the UK and he doesn't discriminate merely on physical characteristics, he has a go at everyone, even the Scots! Although, I haven't seen him have a go at the Welsh, maybe he is a Taffy living in Essex

 

[Mike375]

Nationality is not necessarily a race but my point is that it can be. Colin certainly defines Americans as having shared interests and characteristics, such as arrogance and shooting for example, this is the crux of my argument and why I call colin a racist.

For a start I don't agree that shared interests are a race. Shared interests can be changed but the race can't be. You are born as a certain race whereas interests are developed.

Also, from the perspective of common usage criticism of a country based on culture would not be considered racism. If it was then talk back radio in Australia would need to change due to our very strict racial discrimination laws.

If an Asian or Arab comes to Australia and takes on all that is traditional Australia, their race is still the same.

 

[oumahexi]

The British had it pretty clear cut in South Africa (they being the originators of Apartheid - the Afrikaanas were just daft enought to give it a name). Everyone was separated by race - Whites: Coloured and Black. Whites were of obvious European origin, coloured included mixed race and Asian and Black was the race into which the Africans were grouped.

I'm not waving the flag for Apartheid, but I do think that this pretty much shows the ground rules for what "race" is.

 

[chergh]

I'm not waving the flag for Apartheid, but I do think that this pretty much shows the ground rules for what "race" is.

I'll stick with the wider definition used by dictionaries. Your dictionary definition just took the part you wanted it also included these other definitions, I've bolded the ones I feel are relevant to supporting my points:

noun 1 each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics. 
2 racial origin or distinction: rights based on race. 
[B]3 a group of people sharing the same culture, language, etc.; an ethnic group. 
4 a group of people or things with a common feature. [/B]
5 Biology a distinct population within a species; a subspecies.

 

[Mike375]

Check the definition of "ethnic" a little way down the page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

 

[chergh]

An ethnic group is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or presumed.[1][2] Ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness[3] and the recognition of common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits,[1][4] real or presumed, as indicators of contrast to other groups.

What's your point?

 

[Mike375]

esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic

For common usage ethnic will usually mean minorities and with race being a key issue.

For example, there are gun owners in England who obviously share many interests and they are most definitely a minority but I don't don't think the words race or ethnic would be applied to them. If what you were saying was correct then various anti gun groups would be classed as being racist for the their criticisms of shooters in England.

However, until more recent times Soccer was said to be limited in Australia to different ethnic groups and I can assure you that meant race.

 

[chergh]

esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic

For common usage ethnic will usually mean minorities and with race being a key issue.

For example, there are gun owners in England who obviously share many interests and they are most definitely a minority but I don't don't think the words race or ethnic would be applied to them. If what you were saying was correct then various anti gun groups would be classed as being racist for the their criticisms of shooters in England.

However, until more recent times Soccer was said to be limited in Australia to different ethnic groups and I can assure you that meant race.

All you have done is give an example of a group that isn't a race and there are many examples of these but it doesn't do anything to support your hypothesis that nationality cannot be used to define a race. Just because it isn't true for examples A, B and C doesn't necessarily mean it isn't true for examples X, Y and Z.

 

[Mike375]

All you have done is give an example of a group that isn't a race and there are many examples of these but it doesn't do anything to support your hypothesis that nationality cannot be used to define a race. Just because it isn't true for examples A, B and C doesn't necessarily mean it isn't true for examples X, Y and Z.

But for common useage race is not determined by where you live.

I can go to the rifle range and there will be Asian, Arabs and Anglo based Australians who all share common interests which will even extend beyond guns and they all live in Australia. In fact they might have all been born in Australia. But there is no way they will be classed as a "race" or an "ethnic" group. an Arab is an Arab and it does not matter where he/she was born or lives.

Now in the case of a lot of countries I agree that nationality and race could be the same thing, I guess many of the Middle Eastern countries would be that way but it hardly applies countries like Australia or America. But even where the nationality is a strong indicator of race criticism of the country as a group will not normally be seen as racism.

Colin's criticism of America (and at times Australia) is one of culture.

A question for you. If the Arab who lives up the road from me has adopted all traditional Australian culture and given up all Arab culture, even converts from Islam to Christianity, is he still an Arab?

 

[chergh]

This is getting tedious now.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/prosecution/rrpbcrbook.html

For the purposes Racist or religous crime the British CPS defines racial group as:

Racial group – this means any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin. This could include Gypsies and Travellers, refugees, or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of racial group.

Feel free to think that you want but i consider my inclusion of nationality as grounds for racism to be warranted and given it is included within english law it would appear I am not alone. Now I really don't have any more to say regarding nationality and racism.

 

[Mike375]

Let's agree to differ.

 

[dan-cat]

Feel free to think that you want but i consider my inclusion of nationality as grounds for racism to be warranted and given it is included within english law it would appear I am not alone.

Whoah, that's a pretty compelling argument. Nice one.

 

[Mike375]

Whoah, that's a pretty compelling argument. Nice one.

but if you read it colour and race are required and nationality is not on its own