Question on American politics (1 Viewer)

R

Rich

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FoFa said:
Yet you have no real clue as to how the world may work outside your little world.
ROFL from an American :rolleyes:

As for America looking after other's interests, crap America cares only for American interests. Oh and you'll forgive me for not finding the subject of so many innocent deaths thanks to Bush and Bliar's policies as being the least bit humorous
 

FoFa

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Rich said:
ROFL from an American
See, you make my point, C-L-U-E-L-E-S-S

As for America looking after other's interests, crap America cares only for American interests. Oh and you'll forgive me for not finding the subject of so many innocent deaths thanks to Bush and Bliar's policies as being the least bit humorous
Once again, you take one little piece of a whole document, and try to turn the meaning of the whole, in to the partial piece. Kind of reminds me how the news media tries to control our thinking by using sound bytes.
Wonder if that is a European thing. Would figure.
 

jsanders

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Rich said:
Not about this subject I'm not.


Really?

Oh Oracle, what is a real solution to the Iraqi crises?
 

The_Doc_Man

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First things first, from a Katrina victim speaking of immediate knowledge. In any area where the National Guard in Louisiana dragged someone out of a house, there was a danger of contamination or pollution that was a health hazard. Some of the crud in the flood waters in New Orleans etched stainless steel after less than 20 days of immersion. I know some folks whose heavy gauge stainless restaurant hardware did exactly that.

The governor of Lousiana DOES have the power to force evacuations from areas for public safety. (I got out voluntarily while the getting was good so I didn't have to wade around in the two feet of water that flooded my house.) But if you are going to ping governor Blanco, at least ping her for the right reason. The dumbo argued with Mayor Nagin about the authority involved - essentially a political power pissing match - while the water level rose and the pumps faltered. Both of them needed to be shaken firmly.

Second, I'll try to clarify the issues involved in having a political party change in Congress by defining the theory of American Government:

1. If no party has a super-majority in both houses of Congress, nobody can push legislation through that is unilateral in nature. In other words, it becomes necessary to compromise. In GWB's previous Congress, he didn't have a super-majority but he had a simple majority - so simple bills that didn't have minimum-margin limits (called a super-majority) could be passed and he could sign them pretty much as a rubber stamp assembly line. Now - it is a new game in town.

2. By basing one house on population and the other on geography, a new bill has to have widespread appeal to all regions of the country. Having one party control both houses thwarts this idea. Returning control to GWB's opposition makes things better regarding the need for compromise.

3. The Senate's election phasing means you can't get rid of all your opposition at once (without assassination). So an idea has to be good enough to attract support immediately or it will languish and die in the bowels of some committee. (Devil's Dictionary: A committee is the only animal with many stomachs and no brains.)

4. The convolutions of the American government are designed to slow down all actions, to give folks time to think. Time to react to new ideas. The issues with 9/11 empowered the war-mongers to be able to react without slowing down to plan. Bad idea. I'll be honest, Saddam had to go - but it was done really badly.

Where the USA has broken down (IMHO) comes under two categories:

A. The 9/11 attack polarized our attention to the exclusion of cooler heads. So the war-mongers got elected. Not saying we wouldn't have gone to war, but it might have been on different terms. The Democratic party victories will force all legislation to be the result of compromise. It might very well put a lot of GWB's programs down the commode. But at least he will be forced to consider a way to "throw the dogs a bone or two" in order to get things done. And THAT is sometimes a waste of money, but it at least forces some money in other directions than plain old war expenditures. And THAT is a good thing.

B. Lobbyists have a lot of influence because they spend a lot of money that is finely targeted to the Senators and Representatives who can push their agendas through. So a bunch of politicos are now beholden to someone else's money and can't vote for a good thing even if someone rubs their faces in it. Myself, I would take the approach as a variant of Shakespeare. First we'll kill all the lobbyists... This factor doesn't get affected by the party in power. The money gets spent either way.
 

Jakboi

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The_Doc_Man said:
First things first, from a Katrina victim speaking of immediate knowledge. In any area where the National Guard in Louisiana dragged someone out of a house, there was a danger of contamination or pollution that was a health hazard. Some of the crud in the flood waters in New Orleans etched stainless steel after less than 20 days of immersion. I know some folks whose heavy gauge stainless restaurant hardware did exactly that.

The governor of Lousiana DOES have the power to force evacuations from areas for public safety. (I got out voluntarily while the getting was good so I didn't have to wade around in the two feet of water that flooded my house.) But if you are going to ping governor Blanco, at least ping her for the right reason. The dumbo argued with Mayor Nagin about the authority involved - essentially a political power pissing match - while the water level rose and the pumps faltered. Both of them needed to be shaken firmly.

Second, I'll try to clarify the issues involved in having a political party change in Congress by defining the theory of American Government:

1. If no party has a super-majority in both houses of Congress, nobody can push legislation through that is unilateral in nature. In other words, it becomes necessary to compromise. In GWB's previous Congress, he didn't have a super-majority but he had a simple majority - so simple bills that didn't have minimum-margin limits (called a super-majority) could be passed and he could sign them pretty much as a rubber stamp assembly line. Now - it is a new game in town.

2. By basing one house on population and the other on geography, a new bill has to have widespread appeal to all regions of the country. Having one party control both houses thwarts this idea. Returning control to GWB's opposition makes things better regarding the need for compromise.

3. The Senate's election phasing means you can't get rid of all your opposition at once (without assassination). So an idea has to be good enough to attract support immediately or it will languish and die in the bowels of some committee. (Devil's Dictionary: A committee is the only animal with many stomachs and no brains.)

4. The convolutions of the American government are designed to slow down all actions, to give folks time to think. Time to react to new ideas. The issues with 9/11 empowered the war-mongers to be able to react without slowing down to plan. Bad idea. I'll be honest, Saddam had to go - but it was done really badly.

Where the USA has broken down (IMHO) comes under two categories:

A. The 9/11 attack polarized our attention to the exclusion of cooler heads. So the war-mongers got elected. Not saying we wouldn't have gone to war, but it might have been on different terms. The Democratic party victories will force all legislation to be the result of compromise. It might very well put a lot of GWB's programs down the commode. But at least he will be forced to consider a way to "throw the dogs a bone or two" in order to get things done. And THAT is sometimes a waste of money, but it at least forces some money in other directions than plain old war expenditures. And THAT is a good thing.

B. Lobbyists have a lot of influence because they spend a lot of money that is finely targeted to the Senators and Representatives who can push their agendas through. So a bunch of politicos are now beholden to someone else's money and can't vote for a good thing even if someone rubs their faces in it. Myself, I would take the approach as a variant of Shakespeare. First we'll kill all the lobbyists... This factor doesn't get affected by the party in power. The money gets spent either way.

Damn Doc nicely put...

I do agree that their was some mistakes made with Iraq and that their should have been more planning and it may have been rushed. Sometimes that happens unfortunately under certain circumstances. Saddam was a dictator and brutal man and its best he is gone...torturing people, invading Kuwait, attacking Iran...those are the best characteristics.

Talking about rushing into a war...the recent conflict between Israel and Hezbollah was very similar. The offensive that happend over the summer was misplanned as well. Israel rushed into that and didn't get the results it wanted as well. The head of their military just resigned and Olmert's politcal life is on the line for that mismanaged offensive.
 
R

Rich

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Jakboi said:
Damn Doc nicely put...

I do agree that their was some mistakes made with Iraq and that their should have been more planning and it may have been rushed. Sometimes that happens unfortunately under certain circumstances. Saddam was a dictator and brutal man and its best he is gone...torturing people, invading Kuwait, attacking Iran...those are the best characteristics.
How odd that you condemn him for fighting an American war against Iran:rolleyes:
As for looking for reasons to justify Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq, don't bother, you haven't got a leg to stand on
 

FoFa

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Rich said:
As for looking for reasons to justify Bush's illegal invasion of Iraq, don't bother, you haven't got a leg to stand on
It's only illegal if we say it's illegal.
Just because you Europeans don't have enough "umph" yourself, you are forced to hide behind the UN.
 

MarkK

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FoFa said:
It's only illegal if we say it's illegal.
Just because you Europeans don't have enough "umph" yourself, you are forced to hide behind the UN.
Legal 'cause the boy with the biggest stick says so. Lovely.
 

KalelGmoon

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lagbolt said:
Legal 'cause the boy with the biggest stick says so. Lovely.

I hate to say this, because I am just opening myself up for "attacks", but isn't that how history of the entire world has been written? the person with the biggest stick makes the rules and the laws? sounds to me a lot like human nature or whatever. but hey that is just my humble opinion
 
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Rich

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KalelGmoon said:
I hate to say this, because I am just opening myself up for "attacks", but isn't that how history of the entire world has been written? the person with the biggest stick makes the rules and the laws? sounds to me a lot like human nature or whatever. but hey that is just my humble opinion
Well I thought the UN was set up to make and police international law, the US of course simply ignores the UN because it thinks that since it's the largest contributor to the UN it should thus control it
 

Jakboi

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Rich said:
Well I thought the UN was set up to make and police international law, the US of course simply ignores the UN because it thinks that since it's the largest contributor to the UN it should thus control it

Didnt we create it as well...

It could be worse. What if it wasnt the US and was China. Then there would be blantant human rights abuses, sensored media, no intellectual property rights and who else knows. Or even if it was Russia...same thing.

Iran might be a good candidate...lets face it. If it was any other European Country...or Cananda...or Austrailia it would be the same...were all Western. Just happens the guys who ride horses with cowboy hats happen to be riding shotgun.
 
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Rich

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Jakboi said:
Just happens the guys who ride horses with cowboy hats happen to be riding shotgun.
And in the true tradition of the wildwest you shoot first and ask questions later:rolleyes:
 

jsanders

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Rich said:
And in the true tradition of the wildwest you shoot first and ask questions later:rolleyes:

Damn fine motto too.
 

MarkK

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KalelGmoon said:
I hate to say this, because I am just opening myself up for "attacks", but isn't that how history of the entire world has been written? the person with the biggest stick makes the rules and the laws? sounds to me a lot like human nature or whatever. but hey that is just my humble opinion
No. History is perhaps written by the winner in war, but in the last 100 years what war has been won by the aggressor? Rule of law as opposed to the "biggest stick" has always yielded a happier, more productive society or association of societies. Aggressor nations don't make friends, and not having friends is just bad for business.
 

KalelGmoon

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lagbolt said:
No. History is perhaps written by the winner in war, but in the last 100 years what war has been won by the aggressor? Rule of law as opposed to the "biggest stick" has always yielded a happier, more productive society or association of societies. Aggressor nations don't make friends, and not having friends is just bad for business.

But dont the winners usually ahve the biggest sticks? WWII the atom bomb that was a pretty big stick, though Vietnam, alot of that we did not have the support of the people which is also a very big stick. if you can get the people of your country behind you and have the biggest stick. there will not be much that can stop an aggressor nation
 

MarkK

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KalelGmoon said:
there will not be much that can stop an aggressor nation
Like Iraq? Vietnam? Soviets in Afghanistan? Soviets? Germany and Japan in WWII?
I believe that the universe favours a just and noble cause. All things being equal, this cause will be to combat the aggressor.
 

ColinEssex

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Jakboi said:
It could be worse. What if it wasnt the US and was China. Then there would be blantant human rights abuses, sensored media, no intellectual property rights and who else knows.
The USA does all that, now list what it would be like if China was the 'superpower' (which it will be soon)

Col
 

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